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Jonathan Hafetz

Hi, I'm Jonathan Hafetz. Welcome to law on film. This is a podcast that explores the connections between law and film. This episode we look at Vindication Swim, a 2024 biographical drama that tells the story of Mercedes Glides, the first British woman to swim the English Channel, in 1927. This major accomplishment was soon called into question when another swimmer made a dubious claim to the same feat to defend her integrity and her legacy.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Lights, played by Christine Callahan in the film, attempted what she called her vindication swim. A second crossing of the English Channel intended to silence her critics and restore her reputation. Vindication swim is about more than an athletic feat. It also raises timeless questions of proof, reputation and justice while providing a window into the barriers imposed by gender and class in early 20th century England.

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Jonathan Hafetz

I'm thrilled to be joined by the film's writer and director, Elliott Hasler. Elliott Hasler is an award winning British film director and screenwriter, best known for his upcoming professional feature debut, Vindication swim. The film has undergone three years of production with filmmaking taking place in the English Channel itself. Astor's passion for filmmaking began at an early age with the production of World War Two.

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Jonathan Hafetz

The Long Road Home, made while at school and completed in 2017 when Hassell was just 16 years old. That same year, Hasler founded the UK based independent film company Rossa Films. Before pursuing vindication, Swim Hasler made a series of short films, including To Hunt a Tiger, a film about tiger preservation which was shot in Sri Lanka at the same locations as David Lean's iconic film bridge on the River Kwai.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Elliott, it's wonderful to have you on law on film to talk about vindication. Swim.

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Elliot Hasler

Thanks very much. Thanks for inviting me on.

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Jonathan Hafetz

So, I guess to start, who was Mercedes Glades and why was her 1927 channel swim so groundbreaking?

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Elliot Hasler

Oh, so these lights was, So she was a woman born in in Brighton, on the south coast of England to, to German immigrant parents. So she had they migrated over and then, she was sort of raised by the sea, in the same hometown that I was born in as well. We were born exactly a century apart, Mercedes.

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Elliot Hasler

And in 1900, me in 2000. You know, was one of the reasons I wanted to make the film, but. But she was this sort of ordinary working class woman who had these sort of grand dreams of swimming the English Channel. She was always a passionate swimmer and, obviously, no, with societal expectations of the era, you know, being a woman in the 1920s and, a dual sort of German immigrants in between the wars.

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Elliot Hasler

So she faced a lot of, a lot of prejudice in sort of achieving those dreams, swimming the channel. But as you say, 9 to 27, you know, she became the first British woman to swim the English Channel and then she went on to become this incredible pioneer of open water swimming. She was a real trailblazer in not just women's sports, but sports in general.

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Elliot Hasler

She was the first person to do many swims around the world. So the Strait of Gibraltar, Robben Island, Cape Town, the daughter now. So she went all over the globe, you know, accomplishing these incredible, incredible feats of endurance, really, and sort of becoming this, this incredible pioneer of female empowerment and women's sports.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Yes. It's sort of a pivotal moment for her after. Well, we'll talk about what happens with the competing claim. But in order for her to restore her reputation and go on to do all the things, she did.

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Elliot Hasler

Yeah, absolutely.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Did she, I, she asked me, were those, they do mentioned you mentioned those in the film or subsequent to towards the end or subsequent career, including the Gibraltar swim. Was the channel the most difficult of them all or, or was that just sort of her launching point for these other swimmers?

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Elliot Hasler

I think the channel was sort of her crowning glory achievement, really, because, you know, with all the difficulty of, proving whether or not she had done it and sort of the cheating scandal that developed from it and, you know, all those sort of complications. So I think that really was her sort of a major sort of swim, really.

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Elliot Hasler

But but, you know, I'd say her her hardest swim was the North Sea Channel, which was the only swim she never actually managed to succeed at crossing. So, you know, she really pushed herself. The channel was, by no means easy. And then she went on to do these other swims, which we have arguably are even harder after that.

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Jonathan Hafetz

And so what drew you to this story? I mean, I sort of touched.

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Elliot Hasler

Earlier and sort of the connection I felt to Mercedes Glazer as a person. You know, we were both born in Brighton in England and exactly a century apart and pretty much from the same beach. You know, we both learned to swim. So there was a lot that kind of drew me to her as a person. So those sort of those aspects and also the resilience, the determination, the perseverance that it took for her to go out and achieve those, I think on a much smaller scale with things that I can relate to as a filmmaker, you know, those sorts of traits are something that are also sort of key for me.

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Elliot Hasler

So there was a lot that kind of drew me to her. And then also the challenge of filming out on the English Channel, as she said, everything was shot out on the English Channel. We didn't fake this. There was no tanks, no green screens, no body doubles. We were two miles out at sea. Kirsten Callahan, who plays miss, hated all her own swimming.

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Elliot Hasler

There was no, nobody that was at all the she trained sort of 3 or 4 months and was swimming. So, you know, it was a fifth endurance to bring it to the screen as well.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Did she have a background as a swimmer? I mean, Kieran Callahan or no or is that something she just sort of perfected?

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Elliot Hasler

She was a good swimmer, but she'd never done open water swimming before. I mean, she's an actress first and foremost. You'd never she's not not a swimmer. As such. So. So we trained her up, so we we got her a coach, and she actually sort of spent the best part of four months really training water swimming. And then over the three years it took to make the film, she carried on training for that whole time.

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Elliot Hasler

So she was a fantastic guy by the end of it. And then she did a sort of, 10-K, swim for charity and stuff like that. So she's kept it up and turns out she's, she's a brilliant swimmer.

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Jonathan Hafetz

It must be nice to just a side point, I mean, about some of the roles, you know, you put on weight or, you know, either fat or muscle, but not necessarily good for you. But here's one role you prepare for that's probably really good for you to do. So that's really interesting.

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Elliot Hasler

Yeah it is. And we sort of hit that curve with this where open water swimming just boomed. The interest in it after Covid just went crazy all throughout the world. And we sort of managed to I guess, not foresee that. But we kind of rode that wave of huge interest in this sport, which previously wasn't really touched upon.

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Elliot Hasler

So it was lovely to kind of be a part of that.

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Jonathan Hafetz

And so going back to sort of the central event in the film. Right. So Mercedes guy swims the English Channel. It's a great achievement, but that's sort of his side of the story to some extent, although still through flashback. It really begins with this controversy sparked by another swimmer, Edith Gade, who has a competing claim after Mercedes Gleich swims the channel, Gade swims the channel.

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Jonathan Hafetz

So what happens in terms of this controversy?

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Elliot Hasler

So essentially Gade swim out of the name we changed for the film? I'm funny enough for legal reasons. So sort of actors that were on a legal legal podcast talking about it, but, so yeah, this other swimmer came along and fraudulently claimed to have swum the English Channel off the back of Mercedes truthful and genuine English Channel swim, which then implicated Mercedes in this hoax because this sort of consensus was, well, if this woman's lied and hasn't swum the channel, then what's Mercedes got to prove that she did it because at the time there wasn't really any stringent regulation of swimming the channel.

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Elliot Hasler

You could kind of go out there and it was sort of based off of the testimony of people on the boat. So, you know, it was very easy to kind of fraudulently claim to have done it. Mercedes didn't she had swum the English Channel genuinely, but was implicated in this hoax, then had to go out there and and sort of prove herself.

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Elliot Hasler

But but this sort of was really the moment that led to regulation of channel swimming and the sort of governing bodies like the Channel Swimming Association, they all kind of came about because of this.

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Jonathan Hafetz

And so was there some you mentioned the follow up in terms of the changing of the name was the concern was it was a continuing controversy over it in terms of why you change the name of the competing swimmer.

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Elliot Hasler

It's more sort of, sort of a safety precaution, you know, a legal precaution, really. I mean, a lot of films do that, that are based on real people. You know, they'll kind of change the names and it just protects from sort of, you know, any potential defamation suit so that, you know, from the, from the family and that kind of thing.

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Elliot Hasler

I mean, I don't know if she has relatives that are still alive. I it wasn't something that we looked that much into. But obviously, you know, it's a negative portrayal, but it's a truthful portrayal because what she did was a negative thing. But obviously we just kind of switched the names around because of artistic liberties that we took with the story and that sort of thing, just to kind of, you know, cover our own tracks a little bit.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah, yeah, no, sorry for the family and because of, dramatize the story more in terms of the personal dimension and the competition between the film character Edith Gate and Mercedes glides.

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Elliot Hasler

Yeah, essentially. I mean, most of it is pretty accurate to what happened in the show. I mean, obviously, any film, you know, we want to sort of the private conversations that people had. So, you know, there's always going to be artistic license within any kind of film that's based on, on true events. But for the most part, the stuff that was recorded and, you know, set down, like the things that occurred on the swims, we've kind of kept those that pretty bang accurate, you know, as accurate as we could make them.

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Jonathan Hafetz

And what's striking and I, you know, just to pick up on your point before is how how easy it was potentially for someone to fake the swim. And then you know, what that meant in terms of calling into question the integrity of the real swim Mercedes glide swim, which actually was the swim of the full channel. So it really seems to be sort of an important moments.

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Jonathan Hafetz

I think you're suggesting in terms of open water swimming and, you know, maybe sports more broadly.

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Elliot Hasler

Yeah, definitely. I mean, it was a huge event at the time. It was it was labeled the hoax of the century. And it was just a massive, you know, kind of massive sort of role that sort of took over after this other swimmer was found to have cheated. I mean, I think it sort of is a testament to the misogyny at the time that Mercedes was implicated in that.

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Elliot Hasler

I think it was very much kind of, you know, there was this view at the time that women couldn't swim. The English Channel. Their bodies weren't capable of of that kind of endurance. And, obviously that was that was absolute rubbish. And, you know, I think Mercedes and Edith, the woman she's based on and also Gertrude Adderly, you know, all these sort of female pioneers of the era, you know, they really challenged that kind of status quo.

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Elliot Hasler

And I think the establishment that there was a lot of backlash over that and hence why they sort of women were hounded for a Mercedes lights case, not cheating, but but, you know, they sort of implicated her in that whole thing.

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Jonathan Hafetz

So there's a whole there's a gender dimension to the whole way that the hoax was treated as opposed to if it had been, you know, a male swimmer. Well, when was the first who was the first man to swim the channel? And how much earlier was that?

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Elliot Hasler

So that was that was a guy called Captain Webb, who was the first man to swim at, which was what is that, 150 years this year? I think it's the anniversary of it. It was a farewell before. It was in sort of the late 1800s that he swam it. And then. Yeah, the first woman, Gertrude, died, an American woman.

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Elliot Hasler

That was in 1926, the year before. Mercedes glides.

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Jonathan Hafetz

So, yeah. So the fact that the claim of the well, we'll just use the film character's name is gay. The competitors claim, you know, have done it. And then the hoax was to some extent really, you know, driven in part by this kind of use of gender and abilities of men and women to do these feats.

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Elliot Hasler

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that the film is, you know, it's sort of a lot of the themes within it sort of carry the story of female empowerment and sort of overcoming the societal barriers at the time, which she, you know, was sort of Mercedes guys, this whole deal. You know, she did a lot for sort of the empowerment of women in that era.

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Elliot Hasler

And obviously she faced a lot of backlash for that as well.

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Jonathan Hafetz

And there's also the I mean, it's not only gender. I think there's also class, and you talked a little also about nationality being someone of German heritage.

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Elliot Hasler

Yeah. I mean, we saw Mercedes within Britain at the time. She sort of, you know, didn't take any of the boxes off of what they were looking for. You know, as I said, this is a woman. This is, you know, someone born to German immigrants just after the First World War. And, you know, she's also not from the right class.

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Elliot Hasler

You know, of persons, you know, as a working class single typist, you know, so, she really was, you know, someone who really kind of came out of nowhere and sort of took the establishment by storm, which, you know, I think is just sort of another incredible aspect of her character, really. You know, she was an extraordinary woman.

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Elliot Hasler

And to just go out there and defy all of that and achieve what she did was truly remarkable.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah. I mean, the nationality makes sense in terms of the context at the time. So, you know, 1927. So we're exactly almost right, sort of smack in the interwar years. Right. And so but the class is interesting because I guess the question is, do most people who are doing these sort of endurance athletic feats came from more of, I guess, upper class, something which today you wouldn't necessarily think of, but I guess that's what is implicit in what you're saying for the time.

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Elliot Hasler

Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, in that era in Britain especially, everything was so rooted in class kind of any, any sort of achievement was, you know, the people they wanted to kind of achieve those feats were people of upper class, you know, origins. So for Mercedes, you know, she wasn't. And then that sort of a lot of the film plays into is the sort of tension between her and Edith Gade, who is obviously a more sort of upper class character who comes to conflict with Mercedes.

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Elliot Hasler

So. So it was sort of all this class struggle as well, which I think is kind of gives it that uniquely British aspect.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah. And there's that great scene between Mercedes Glides, who's a secretary, and her employer, who makes unwanted sexual advances. But you can see by the gender but also the class dynamics. I mean, she has to hold down a job while she is sort of training for this, this endurance feat.

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Elliot Hasler

Yeah. Because she found to do her own swims as well. She wasn't sponsored in the same way that, you know, you see, Edith Gade is sponsored in the film. So, you know, Mercedes throughout her entire career, she funded them all. She would do these sort of massive feats of endurance where she'd swim. So for 48 hours a night in a local swimming pool all around the UK, and people would come and pay a small donation to to to watch her, and she would use that money to then go on and fund her international sort of endurance swims in Australia, South Africa, you know, New Zealand all around the world.

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Jonathan Hafetz

And it's really interesting to the film that there's there is that wealthy, sponsor who initially does not decide to sponsor Mercedes, but later after her vindication swim sort of joins on. I don't know how much impact that person had in subsequent events in her life. But yeah, there was this sort of wealthy person in the background there.

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Elliot Hasler

Yeah. And then obviously, you know, it sort of takes Mercedes a long time to prove herself and sort of proof her identity. Really. A lot of the themes within the film kind of focus on identity and sort of her proving herself as, as British, you know, she's kind of questioning all the time. Is she German? Is she British?

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Elliot Hasler

You know, because the country she's in isn't accepting her, but she was born there and it's sort of all this question of sort of immigration. And when said people who immigrate become sort of naturalized in the country. So it does sort of tie into all of that sort of thing. And obviously the wealthy donors feed into the class aspect.

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Elliot Hasler

And, you know, it's all kind of connected, essentially.

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Jonathan Hafetz

And so, you know, you said this was determined to be or this was said to be the hoax of the century. Right? Were there other sort of lesser but significant public controversies over endurance athletic feats prior to Mercedes lights and whether in swimming or in other, you know, other areas or mountain climbing or something like that.

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Elliot Hasler

I mean, I'm sure that would have been, you know, I'm not too sure on this sort of, you know, exact examples. But, you know, obviously this was this was a big one within the swimming world, certainly certainly within women's sports. But I'm sure there's, you know, myriad other controversies that have come out of people cheating and claiming to have done things they haven't done.

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Jonathan Hafetz

So when Mercedes glitches her swim, her 1927 channel storm is called into question. Her integrity is called into question. What she ultimately chooses to do right is to do the vindication. Swim to swim again. Improve. She can do it. Were there other remedies or other other things she might have done in that position? She was of how she gets to the choice she makes.

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Elliot Hasler

Essentially, I think the vindication swim is sort of the last resort, really, because with the sort of prejudices that she was up against, you know, the the race, the gender, the class, you know, her word didn't count for much in front of these bodies of, you know, powerful men sort of sat behind a desk judging her. So really, there wasn't much she could do other than say, look, I'm going to go and swim it again.

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Elliot Hasler

And that's the only way I'm going to be able to prove that I, you know, did, in fact, do it the first time. And it can do it again.

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Jonathan Hafetz

You said this event, you know, was an impetus for verifying and regulating open water swimming and perhaps other endurance events as well. So I guess, you know, it's sort of night and day if you look at something, you know, today versus, you know, what happened in 19, around 1927, if this happened again today, how might that have played out differently in terms of the speed of claim?

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Elliot Hasler

It just essentially it couldn't happen today really, but just because of the way it's now run. So you have to, have a channel swimming association sort of accreditation, a pilot boat that sort of takes you across the English Channel and Shepard's you on your, on your swim. So I think if you were to do it without that, your swim probably wouldn't be counted, you know, and that was sort of regulation that came in after this.

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Elliot Hasler

And also the way Mercedes swims, you can't even do any more. So Mercedes swam from France to England. The French have now banned swimming from France to to England. You have to go the other way from England to France. So, so of the whole nature of it is really over the years, you know, since Mercedes swam the channel, it's shifted entirely.

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Jonathan Hafetz

What's the French ban? What was the origin of that? Is that an outgrowth of Brexit, or is that just something unrelated to that?

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Elliot Hasler

I have no idea. I mean, it may be something to do with Brexit, I don't know, but, but but yeah, as it is now, you have to swim to France. I don't think you're allowed to get off. I think you have to, like, go back and then, and to the country, you know, through a proper channel, I think as well.

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Elliot Hasler

Obviously, once you've come ashore.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Right. Because Mercedes did it the other way. Right. So she swims, you know, the whole thing is the end. You see the white cliffs of Dover, right?

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Elliot Hasler

Yeah. And a lot of swimmers that I've spoken to who sort of older and so on the channel, you know, a while ago they preferred doing it that way because it did. So you sort of have this sense of, of coming home, you know, if you're a British swimmer and you see the white cliffs, it sort of spurs you on at the at the last moment, which us, you know, swimmers today that they wouldn't be able to get that sensation.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah. That's in the film I mean that's one of the you know that mention of seeing the White Cliffs. And then actually we see that at the end of the of the vindication swim itself. I mean, she doesn't ultimately make it, I guess, but she gets close. Right. And so that she triumphs.

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Elliot Hasler

Yeah. It's sort of a very British ending to her story. Radiolab with the channel. It's very much kind of like Dunkirk and sort of the celebration of a sort of glorious failure, really. You know, she she got so close. And I think that sort of proved that she could do it. The weather at the time, it was so cold in the water and just the endurance of lasting, you know, sort of ten hours that she did manage to last in that.

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Elliot Hasler

I think that that just went to show that she had the grit. She could do it.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah. Actually, that's one of the more interesting things about the film when we think in terms of, whether it's a legalistic remedy that she might have or something that would prove that she actually swam it in 1927, and that Edith gave competitor was fabricating the evidence. Or there's some other form of vindication, because the vindication is not really a legal vindication when you think about it.

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Jonathan Hafetz

First of all, there's no way to prove she actually swam in in 2027. Right? And even if she swam it again, it doesn't mean she swam it before. Right? It wouldn't actually prove it. There's no way that it's unprovable effectively. And as you said, it's a glorious failure. She doesn't actually even make it all the way on the vindication swim.

00;19;04;09 - 00;19;15;23

Jonathan Hafetz

Yet everyone kind of believes it. So it's ultimately kind of a public opinion and public perception that's sort of really key as opposed to any actual, you know, sort of legal conclusive effect.

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Elliot Hasler

Yeah. No, I think that that's really kind of hit the nail on the head with it, really. It it is sort of what the public says goes essentially within the story and sort of, you know, when she arrives at the end and everyone's standing there holding the union flags up and and cheering our on, it sort of, a sort of validation really, of her, of her Englishness.

00;19;30;28 - 00;19;40;13

Elliot Hasler

And they accept her as one of their own. And therefore that is what they take as being an acceptance that she did swim the English Channel as well. So it's really kind of very much sort of the court of public opinion.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Where their concerns. I mean, I just in terms of another aspect of safety, which is also presumably changed a great deal in terms of safety regulations to ensure, I guess, maybe even could enter or do this, you'd have to meet some minimum standards of, you know, some average joke in an attempt to try this one on the channel average Jane, but also in terms of on the way there and monitoring the safety, there were some precautions.

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Jonathan Hafetz

She had people in the boat and they helped her. But that must have evolved. That's probably evolved as well over time.

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Elliot Hasler

Oh, I mean, yes, it's certainly sort of evolved tenfold really. You know, the sort of precautions they take now in terms of safety and all that sort of thing, even even the training really, it's just become so much more robust. You know, back then, Mercedes lights, you would eat ham sandwiches and duck legs, things like that. And obviously now the nutrition is so much better, you know, sort of the gels and all the different things that that there's so much, you know, easier to consume and gives you the right amount of minerals and vitamins that you kind of need for that sort of thing.

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Elliot Hasler

Whereas back there they, they were really just winging it. Yeah. They didn't have the nutritional knowledge. They didn't have the kind of safety, you know, regulations that, that are now. So yeah, it's definitely got a lot safer. But it's still, you know, by no means a safe thing to do. It's incredibly dangerous. And the sea itself, you know, can really mess things up.

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Jonathan Hafetz

And I'm sure that was a challenge for you in shooting the film, because the scenes that you have, the water is relatively calm, but which probably was what you needed to shoot in for, you know, the Mercedes, the Mercedes character to swim. But yeah, I'm sure that some of you are like battling with as a director.

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Elliot Hasler

Oh yeah. Every day we were out there was was a challenge. You know, it's, it's something that we really had to take very seriously, you know, the safety of the whole endeavor because, you know, we are out there in Mother Nature, you know, 2 or 2 miles out at sea. So. So at any given time, we'd have a number of different lifeguards on the boat.

00;21;23;27 - 00;21;44;07

Elliot Hasler

You know, we had support boats and on a whole kind of team behind us, really, that made sure everything was, was safe and that it was managed properly. But it was still it was still very dangerous. You know, I say the worst experience we had was one of the producers, got lost at sea in a storm. On one occasion that that was, that was very sketchy, that that was probably the worst, the worst experience we had out there.

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Elliot Hasler

It was in that sequence at the end where she failed was actually to get that flat. Gracie and the gray sky. You have to kind of go out in the calm before storm, and we sort of pushed it too much. So we were coming to the end of production. So sort of we're out there a little bit too long.

00;21;57;15 - 00;22;10;07

Elliot Hasler

And then, and then things did go wrong. And, you know, that was the one time we let our guard down. And maybe rushing at the channel is something that you really have to give your utmost respect to. And we never disrespected or took our chances with the English Channel again.

00;22;10;09 - 00;22;14;25

Jonathan Hafetz

How long was the person, lost for or.

00;22;14;28 - 00;22;32;04

Elliot Hasler

Not not particularly long. And essentially the situation was one of the actors had to, be taken into. Sure to change over for another role. They're working on something else at the same time. So for the sake of speed, really, the producer elected to stay out in the little sort of outboard motor boat and hold the rowing boat we were filming with.

00;22;32;04 - 00;22;50;01

Elliot Hasler

So then we went in on the the bigger support boat, dropped this actor off and did a quick turn around the body double and came back out and I mean, within the space of minutes, really, the sea just changed and the skies changed. And it was it was a torrential rain. The wind picked up and you couldn't see, you know, a hundred yards in front of you.

00;22;50;01 - 00;23;01;21

Elliot Hasler

The visibility dropped to pretty much nothing. So he was out there, I would say, for 20 minutes to half an hour. But obviously when you're in a storm and you're and you're stuck on a boat, it feels like a lot longer.

00;23;01;23 - 00;23;23;00

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah. It's amazing how in particularly in a you know, anywhere really, the weather can change. So just so fast and it can go quite hazardous. And that's a challenge as a you saying as a director in terms of filming it, but I assume also in terms of trying to get the movie made and backing and all the different sort of contractual insurance related things that you had to go through.

00;23;23;00 - 00;23;26;18

Jonathan Hafetz

It was probably, you know, another layer of complication.

00;23;26;20 - 00;23;50;26

Elliot Hasler

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And, and, you know, to go through all that on what is a low budget independent film was it was definitely very challenging. You know, we we don't have the resources that the Hollywood movie has. So yeah, navigating this one was very, very difficult. I mean, I think, you know, if we were sort of more or less naive, shall we say, within the film industry before we start, I don't think we would have ever attempted this film, but I think that naivety was really, you know, what got it made.

00;23;50;26 - 00;23;52;26

Elliot Hasler

Without that, it's never would have happened.

00;23;52;29 - 00;24;12;26

Jonathan Hafetz

That I mean, it's so interesting for you to share that because when you're, you know, you're you've got to be thinking about it and you're just watching, you know, it's very the days of out there, the film, the footage that you've shot that we see as the viewer is all, you know, calm and, you know, it's it's a long swim, but you're not really, you know, it looks a little choppy, but you don't really you're not really thinking about when you're actually out there.

00;24;12;28 - 00;24;25;19

Elliot Hasler

Exactly. Yeah. I don't obviously what you don't see on screen is, is the strength of the current storm. So when you're out there, I mean, you know, it's sort of an impossible thing to portray, really. But yeah, we were in there sometimes and we, we just drift so far away from where we started filming and have to be pulled back.

00;24;25;20 - 00;24;34;12

Elliot Hasler

You know, there's all these sorts of things that you don't really think about until you really get out there and sort of begin to understand, see, and the nature of the weather out there and all of that.

00;24;34;14 - 00;24;56;09

Jonathan Hafetz

Another way of, I think of the film itself is a way of raising awareness about an overlooked historical injustice. In this sense, the injustice was righted by the Vindication Swim itself. So does that also sort of draw you to the film, and what are you hoping to what are you hoping to achieve through this film?

00;24;56;12 - 00;25;11;00

Elliot Hasler

I mean, yeah, on your first point, absolutely. That definitely drew me to it. I think, you know, an underdog story is something that that speaks to everyone, really. And Mercedes really embodies that kind of underdog spirit. You know, we've spoken in kind of in length about what what she faced, the difficulties and all of that sort of thing.

00;25;11;00 - 00;25;29;02

Elliot Hasler

And then with that injustice to go out there and then through her own actions, prove the injustice, you know, to be wrong and overcome. That is is absolutely incredible. And I think that is sort of then what ties into what I want to take away from it is just sort of be inspired by Mercedes Glides. You know, this is a remarkable, incredible woman.

00;25;29;02 - 00;25;45;03

Elliot Hasler

And even if it does inspire you to necessarily go in the sea and swim, you know, it just wanted to do something else. And in your life really, you know, she sort of shows that it doesn't matter who you are, where you come from, you can go out there and you can achieve your dreams with the right amount of of resilience, of determination and perseverance.

00;25;45;05 - 00;26;06;22

Jonathan Hafetz

Dan it's also it seems like someone who was, in addition to the obstacles she faced as a woman and someone who was German descent in England at the time, and the class, she's also, you know, just a regular person, right. Who does this feat? Right? You obviously had some swimming background and had some natural ability, but she's not you know, she's she's sort of just a person that's kind of,

00;26;06;24 - 00;26;11;28

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah. Just I sort of it in some ways, an average person needs a job. She's a secretary. And yet she does this incredible thing.

00;26;12;00 - 00;26;27;10

Elliot Hasler

Yeah. And those are the stories that really speak to me as a, as a filmmaker. Are those stories of just ordinary people that go out there and achieve the extraordinary? You know, I think those are the ones that that I think I can really relate to, sort of stories about presidents and kings and sort of all these grand people.

00;26;27;12 - 00;26;35;05

Elliot Hasler

I think it's the stories of, of the small, ordinary people who go and do these incredible things. That is the story. So that I'm really drawn to.

00;26;35;07 - 00;26;47;13

Jonathan Hafetz

And unless I'm misremembering her swim, Mercedes swim is ultimately recognized officially correct during the 1927 channel crossing is vindicated as a more formal matter ultimately. Is that right?

00;26;47;15 - 00;27;02;27

Elliot Hasler

It is. Yeah. So she is now registered, you know, officially as the first British woman or European woman really, to swim the English Channel when it's all. Yeah, you can find online the sort of logs of and records of the different channel swimmers. And she's up there as she should be with, with the rest of them.

00;27;02;29 - 00;27;21;25

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah. So ultimately she does kind of. Yeah. We get that sort of, popular recognition initially. Right. She's cheered when she's, you know, finishing the vindication swam people applauding her. And then ultimately she seems to get the sort of legal official, formal recognition for the groundbreaking 27 channel crossing.

00;27;21;27 - 00;27;23;09

Elliot Hasler

Yeah. She does. Yeah.

00;27;23;11 - 00;27;36;05

Jonathan Hafetz

Very interesting how they kind of feed into each other. And ultimately she doesn't she's not vindicated by a formal committee. First she's vindicated really by the public. And then that later is what leads to her kind of being restored to what had been denied to her.

00;27;36;07 - 00;27;56;12

Elliot Hasler

Yeah, absolutely. And then, you know, it was from 1927 from from that channel swim that all the actual legal regulations and, you know, governing bodies of channel swimming, all of that really took a hold and became, you know, into effect really. So Mercedes. Yeah, she really sort of was the the mother of modern day channel swimming, really.

00;27;56;15 - 00;28;18;11

Jonathan Hafetz

Were there any other people in the film, whether Mercedes coach who was sort of, kind of a legendary swimmer, it seems, who by the time she gets into coach her swimming that much anymore, but so many other figures, notable figures that were involved in the film or in the story, whether at in the swimming or in some other, you know, societal level.

00;28;18;13 - 00;28;45;05

Elliot Hasler

I mean, it was sort of mainly between Mercedes need of gate. It was sort of the way it was structured at the time, where they sort of pitted these two women against each other, which, you know, I think does tie in to that sort of misogynistic nature of 1920s England. Really. It was it was very much focused on, on the women and sort of hounding both of them, really, especially Mercedes now, because obviously she hadn't cheated and was implicated in all of this for no other reason other than that she'd swum the channel in, you know, relatively quick succession.

00;28;45;05 - 00;28;50;05

Elliot Hasler

So, yeah, it was it was mainly the two women that the whole thing focused on.

00;28;50;08 - 00;28;56;05

Jonathan Hafetz

As you can say, what ended up happening to the Edith Gade character, the competitive swimmer.

00;28;56;08 - 00;29;07;27

Elliot Hasler

She just disappeared, sort of just went for a quiet life after that, I think, and gave up swimming entirely. Never sort of returned to the water. That was sort of the last anyone heard of her in a public sense.

00;29;08;00 - 00;29;21;12

Jonathan Hafetz

So another vindication for Mercedes glides, if you will. I mean, she goes on to all these, prominent events, these other swims and becomes this sort of recognized and I take it, beloved figure in, in the UK.

00;29;21;14 - 00;29;45;08

Elliot Hasler

She's becoming a beloved figure in the UK. But interesting enough, she's just as unknown before, really, before we started making the film as she is in, in the States and, you know, in Canada and sort of everywhere else throughout the world, really. She, she really did sort of drop off the map after she retired from swimming. And it was it was only really sort of in recent times, you know, there's been a book about her, there's been a sort of plaque with her name on that was put on on her childhood home.

00;29;45;08 - 00;30;02;28

Elliot Hasler

And obviously with the film, it's all kind of contributes to this resurgence of, sort of her memory really, you know, bringing her back out and and putting her back on the pedestal where she deserves to be. You know, we're trying to get a statue made for her in our hometown at the moment as well. So, yeah, I mean, she's now thankfully, kind of getting the recognition that she deserves.

00;30;02;28 - 00;30;05;26

Elliot Hasler

But but she was really a forgotten figure.

00;30;05;28 - 00;30;16;27

Jonathan Hafetz

Another contribution of the film is to contribute to that. I mean, she yeah, seem to be sort of somewhat lost to history, at least outside of people kind of in the, in the know of open water swimming.

00;30;16;29 - 00;30;34;17

Elliot Hasler

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, even people within that world of open water swimming, you know, didn't know too much about Mercedes. Like she really was sort of a, very forgotten figure. So it's been great to kind of be on this journey and see her name, get back out there. And, you know, with all the coverage the film has had and this sort of real interest in Mercedes lights that this come back.

00;30;34;19 - 00;30;55;10

Jonathan Hafetz

Elliott, I want to thank you for coming on the podcast. It's been great to talk to you. And, and also just thrilled to have an actual writer and director of the film come on in the show to share your insights about the film and all the different interesting legal and non-legal dimensions of it. So yeah, thanks so much and I wish you the best with the film's opening in North America.

00;30;55;10 - 00;30;57;28

Jonathan Hafetz

So I want you to go out and see this film.

00;30;58;00 - 00;31;00;08

Elliot Hasler

Thank you very much. Yeah. And thanks for having me on the podcast.