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Jonathan Hafetz

Hi, I'm Jonathan Hafetz, and welcome to Law on Film, a podcast that looks at law through film and film through law. This episode we look at On the Waterfront, the celebrated 1954 American film directed by Elia Kazan and written by Budd Schulberg. The film stars Marlon Brando as the X Prize fighter turned new Jersey longshoreman Terry Malloy. Malloy struggles to stand up to mob affiliated union boss Johnny Friendly, played by Lee J.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Cobb. After Malloy is lured into setting up a fellow dockworker whom friendly has murdered to prevent him from testifying before the Waterfront Crime Commission about the violence and corruption at the docks, the pressure on Malloy rises as he falls in love with Eddie Doyle, played by Eva Marie Saint, the murdered dockworker sister. And as he watches local priest Father Pete Barry, played by Karl Malden, fight to defend the dockworkers against corruption.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Malloy ultimately defies his older brother Charlie, played by Rod Steiger, whose family's right hand man, and testifies against friendly at great personal risk. While the film is about a courageous fight against a corrupt power structure and an injustice, it's also influenced by director Elia Kazan's own controversial decision to act as an informant against fellow directors, writers and actors during the McCarthy era Red scare.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Joining me to talk about On the Waterfront is Warren Scharf. Warren has been the executive director of Lenox Hill Neighborhood House since 2003. Warren served previously as the attorney in charge of the Brooklyn Neighborhood Office of the Legal Aid Society. The attorney in charge of the Brooklyn Office for the Aging of the Legal Aid Society, and the Vice President for the partnership of the homeless.

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Jonathan Hafetz

He's the recipient of the Legal Services Award from the Association of the bar of the City of New York, and is a graduate of Columbia College and Columbia Law School. I should add that after law school, my first job as an attorney was working under Warren at the partnership for the homeless, where I learned a tremendous amount and I had a wonderful time getting to know Warren.

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Jonathan Hafetz

So, Warren is so great to have you on the podcast.

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Warren Scharf

Jonathan, thanks for having me here. Very excited.

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Jonathan Hafetz

So On the Waterfront depicts corruption, extortion, racketeering, kickbacks in the longshoremen's union in Hoboken, new Jersey. How did this system of corruption, extortion, etc. work in the movie?

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Warren Scharf

They called it a shape up is what I read. But basically the workers, the unionized workers didn't get picked to load or off load the ships unless they kicked up money each day and were picked for the job by the union bosses who were in the movie and in real life, corrupt.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Right. You can see that in the movie where like, everyone's there going to pick who gets to work that day. And so if you want to get chosen, you got to pay money to the union bosses, to friendly and his cohorts.

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Warren Scharf

Right. And then, like in the end of the movie, when you could see the relationship between the ship owners and the union bosses is also one of corruption because when the tide turn, the ship owner doesn't take the union bosses call. So it looks basically like they're controlling not only who works, but what comes in and what goes out of the docks and what the shipments are in.

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Warren Scharf

The movie depicts the Hoboken dock, but I think it applied in real life pretty much to the entire. It sounds like New York, Brooklyn, certainly new Jersey area.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah, certainly. And the control, I think was I mean, although that, you know, the movie is talking about the sort of New York City waterfront. So, like Red Hook in New York, in Hoboken, new Jersey, I think the controlled by the mob and the, you know, kind of corrupt union leadership was like down the eastern seaboard. So if you were trying to ship stuff in, you had to go, you know, into the eastern seaboard.

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Jonathan Hafetz

You had to go through that.

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Warren Scharf

There's a point in the movie where they're offloading the the Irish whiskey and they're excited about it. And that that scene actually figures prominently in what develops. You know, you want Irish whiskey and you want it delivered. And I'm sure it's controlled both by the Union and the ship owners and everybody kicking back.

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Jonathan Hafetz

I mean, interestingly, although the film is, fictionalized account, it was inspired by a series of of, Pulitzer Prize winning articles in the New York Sun by Malcolm Johnson, which, expose the under the underworld syndicate of organized crime controlling the New York, new Jersey, waterfront. And, these articles led to congressional hearings and eventually Interstate Waterfront Commission compact between New York and New Jersey to try to address the waterfront corruption, which was a, well, a long and, a long process, it seems, with, with a lot of, a lot of, setbacks.

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Jonathan Hafetz

But Schulberg, the screenwriter, spent a good deal of time in Hoboken, in Hoboken, hanging out at the waterfront bars and following the developments. So, I mean, you get a sense that the movie kind of tracks, at least to some extent, what what actually happened.

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Warren Scharf

You know, having seen this movie so many times and then I, you know, occasionally have looked up to see about what's based on reality. But, you know, in thinking about this podcast with you, when I looked for those Malcolm Johnson articles, the Pulitzer web, I think you wrote like a series of 24, and they had two of them up there with an interesting kind of cover story.

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Warren Scharf

I know Spielberg said he did his own reporting, and the movie was based on that, but it looked a lot like what was in those article. Seemed like a pretty, you know, pretty accurate description of what he had covered. And in fact, you know, when you start reading about it, they did it. They called the syndicate. And it sounds like I'm watching good film noir.

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Warren Scharf

So it was pretty exciting. And then actually, the other thing I read in that, which was interesting, is Malcolm Johnson went on to co-found, the Guild newspaper, a union, which is kind of also interesting since this is a film about union corruption. But he turned out to pound the union.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah, that is interesting. I mean, it's about union corruption. And I guess one of the things that may come back to you later, too, is that like it's about the union corruption, but it's a very it's like a strong defense of unions or non corrupt unions. Right too. So like the idea is that they are.

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Warren Scharf

They're taking back because they in the end they want to the workers want to take back their own union from the mob infiltration. And then they do it with finally at the end of the film with Terry's help. You know, I thought the articles were interesting and clearly the docs were important. I know a lot of the scenes, they're shot in new Jersey, but I'd always thought that it was actually depicting the Red hook docks, but I don't think that's actually the case.

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Warren Scharf

I'd always been under the impression it was supposed to be Red hook, but I think it was right. It was the entire port area, and I don't think a lot of the Jersey docks, they developed in the 50s and the 60s. They were later because I think through the war, everything was through Brooklyn and Manhattan. And then I think the the containerization and, train system all went to new Jersey later, right around when the movie happening and when the articles were written.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah. I mean, I think it was filmed, as you said, new Jersey primarily, I think, in Hoboken as well. It's an interesting history that I think is worth it's definitely worth a deeper dive. You know, as I read about all the sort of mob famous mob figures like in the later day. Oh, yeah.

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Warren Scharf

I loved it.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah, yeah, they needed it on the waterfront, too. And I mean, like, I could have been like a Scorsese movie or something. There was a, there a.

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Warren Scharf

I think they had it. It was, it was The Godfather too, because it's the same. Right. There's that whole scene with Michael testifying and for whenever that was the Senate Interstate Commerce Commission, which I think was also a real commission. Right. And they're looking at mob infiltration. Yeah. There could have been a lot of movies out of the same source material, I do think.

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Warren Scharf

But despite what I might think about Kazan personally, he's got a lot of themes covered in this movie. And there's also a pretty interesting love story. But maybe that's because I think, like, either Morrison is perfect in the film and she gets a lot of credit, I think. And she did win. I think they gave her Best Supporting Actress, which also I would be one and like, why is she Best Supporting actress?

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Warren Scharf

And Brando is got Best Actor, but I don't I don't know about the categories well enough, but there's so many different themes going on in this movie.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Well, that's a separate topic. But I think like, I mean, it's really true today. I don't know, I'm not exactly sure back, you know, in 1954, but you put someone forward, you know, you choose the award. And sometimes I think there's some gaming going on about, you know, you put him in for the award that they're going to win.

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Warren Scharf

Where you win.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah. So like in the most recent Oscars, you know, Kieran Culkin won Best Supporting Actor. But it was really it was almost a lead role that they put him in. And so you get it. So in any event, what's interesting to me since our first film role, what's a film debut?

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Warren Scharf

I don't think I remember that she's still alive and, you know, even pictures I think I've seen of her barely recently. She's as beautiful as she was when she was in this film. And Exodus is just spectacular. Incredible little.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, she's one of the not the last from the kind of golden age stars that is, still alive. And Olivia de Havilland was one, but, you know, fairly recently passed away. So one of the themes of that is around boxing, right. So, yeah. Malloy. Right. You know, before he becomes a longshoreman, he was a rising star in the boxing scene.

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Jonathan Hafetz

And he had a big fight. You know, he'd won that fight. You learn that he would have had a chance for the title.

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Warren Scharf

More corruption.

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Jonathan Hafetz

More corruption. He's forced to take a dive by corrupt union, by Lee Jacob and his mob associates who'd bet on the fight and, you know.

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Warren Scharf

His and his brother.

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Jonathan Hafetz

His brother Charlie. Right. And Rod Steiger, who is like the right hand man. And that leads probably the most famous scene in the movie in the taxi where, Brando says to Rod Steiger, the Rod Steiger character. Right. You know, you're the one that you should have protected me. You know, you force me to take this dive.

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Speaker 1

Remember that night? My God, you came down my dressing room. I said, kid, this ain't your night, but come for a price on Wilson. You remember that? This ain't your night. My night. I could have taken this. I can't. So what happens? He gets the title shot outdoors in a ball park. And what do I get? One way ticket.

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Speaker 1

The block of hell. You was my brother, Charlie. You should have looked out for me a little bit. I should have taken care of me just a little bit. So when I do take them down for the short end money, I had some bets down for you. You saw some money. You don't understand. I could have had class.

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Speaker 1

I could have been a contender. I could have been somebody instead of a bum. This is what I am. Let's face up with each other.

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Jonathan Hafetz

So, I mean, how does boxing and the sort of prizefighter theme play into the movie?

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Warren Scharf

I think when I watch it, I don't know when I think about it, but there's all those film noir and these. You mean the filming in this movie is just genius, right? And we will come back and mention, you know, Bernstein score and the gritty, realistic shots and Karl Malden and with Marlon Brando On the Waterfront when he pushes him to go confront Eva Marie Saint.

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Warren Scharf

The boxing seems to me so much of those movies in that era. And even though when I was I and when I was in law school, actually I would go down to the garden to watch the Golden Gloves with law school classmates and I don't, you know, look like now at the garden, still host Golden Glove boxing. And, you know, I graduated law school 42 years ago.

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Warren Scharf

But I'd say boxing seems like from to me, I know it's still a big business, but from a different era. And I know you told me that some of the extras in small parts are fame, other boxers, and there's the boxing and corruption and underworld is always connected, we think with, you know, boxing and racetrack things to make money.

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Warren Scharf

But it also seems to me to fit right in with the the film and the look of the film and the grittiness of the film. So the only thing that was always occurs to me that bothers me when I watch this film is, is that without getting the spoiler alert for those who haven't seen the movie, when we're toward the end, then and he goes down to confront friendly, behind their union shack, which seems to be on a float in the harbor.

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Warren Scharf

If Perry was this ex, I don't know, middleweight boxer who could have been a champion, I would have thought he would have taken out friendly with like 1 or 2 punches. John Frye throws his coat over him and then they kick him and then the other guys. But I always thought, I don't know. Terry would have should have landed 2 or 3 punches and that would have been it.

00;13;02;26 - 00;13;15;13

Warren Scharf

But the boxing to me fits in with boxing. The bar scene, the ethnic wedding where drinking and dancing with Eva Marie Saint, it just like the whole thing works for me.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah, I think boxing resonated differently in 1954. It's kind of like you're saying. I mean, it was, you know, along with baseball, like love sport, right? And it was, you know, boxing matches, you know, they were just watched by large population. Now I mean, today. And to your point, I mean, it's not even a nationally televised sport anymore.

00;13;32;27 - 00;13;51;08

Jonathan Hafetz

So I think the idea of like someone who was in the, the champion, you know, it resonates may resonate differently. And yeah, I totally agree in that scene. Yeah. And what he takes on when Marlon Brando takes on the lead Jacob character, Johnny Friendly, you do you do think if he was that good, I mean, he would have, you know, he would have taken care of that would have been his character.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Although he was a tough he was a tough cookie cop character, but still,

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Warren Scharf

He was, but you get hit by, I guess if you get hit by a boxer, you know, in the gut or twice in their head, most people would go down. You listen, if that's my only that's actually I can think of the oh, my only criticism when I watch this movie, which I've seen so many times.

00;14;12;23 - 00;14;32;12

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah. Well, I just as a side point, there was I think there's a famous I think it's true anecdote that, Sylvester Stallone, who's, you know, big Guy, was, you know, back in his, his prime, wanted to I think it was like a boxing scene for, I guess, one of the Rocky movies. And I think it was, Ernie Shavers who was a professional, heavy, heavy hitter.

00;14;32;14 - 00;14;42;16

Jonathan Hafetz

And Jake was doing it, but he was, you know, doing it with kid gloves. He's like, I'm not going to really hit you. And so I was like, no, you got to hit me. I think he can take it like one tanning salon was like done, you know, like I barely doing Get Up.

00;14;42;16 - 00;14;59;02

Warren Scharf

Yeah, it would be. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's what they do. Yeah. That's why I think it it kind of. I mean, I'd say the other fake part is even though it's the clip you showed, you know, when they're in the back of the car with the kind of the curtain drawn, it's clearly, they said, you know, with.

00;14;59;04 - 00;15;18;05

Warren Scharf

And then there's stuff I now maybe I'll get it wrong and maybe, you know, the I don't know, they didn't get along on the set. Brando and Steiger. I was thinking like, I don't know that I thought I had read that maybe they didn't even record that scene together. They recorded it separately. And now, that may not be correct, but that kind of staged, right?

00;15;18;05 - 00;15;40;16

Warren Scharf

And it looks staged. Whereas the rest of the movie sometimes looks like a lot of film or like filmed on the street with a graininess. But I think the boxing thing works. I in I don't know, Terry, it's good to Terry, it was a boxer and he clearly wasn't a bookkeeper, but, you know, and that he wasn't a lawyer like his brother or whatever, but actually was his brother, the lawyer, this movie.

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Jonathan Hafetz

I think the sense is Charlie is a lawyer. I mean, he's, Janet, he wears these fancy clothings. I think one of the other characters calls him a butcher in a camel coat or some kind of leather coat. He's definitely educated, and he's smooth. He's polished, and he's sort of like you to be kind of, like, more of the brains behind the operation, which includes, you know, a lot of the, the heavies, which, as you said, includes like, you know, I think three former heavyweight contenders.

00;16;05;27 - 00;16;17;13

Jonathan Hafetz

So they're not lost to history. And I never heard of them before, but I'll read their names. Two time Tony Gallant, though, Eve Simon and Tony Morrell, all of whom were fought and defeated by Joe Louis.

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Warren Scharf

But that's like like that makes me think also like when again, like The Godfather, there were ex mobsters advising on the set in the film the lens are, you know, reality. But if they box with Joe Louis but Joe Louis, then they had to be real. So everybody looks real in this movie. Felt like they don't look like an the person who might not even Marie Saint really brings it off.

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Warren Scharf

But, the young Catholic girl who goes gets sent away to Catholic college to be protected by the sister so she doesn't have to witness the grittiness of what's going on around her.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah. Your father says things that are not you know, like refer to kind of the gender assumptions, things that are not fit for a young, pure one wanting to see. So this, you know, the other character, right? Karl Malden plays, Father Barry, who's based on Reverend John Cordon, who was a local priest who fought Union corruption.

00;17;13;23 - 00;17;36;07

Jonathan Hafetz

And again, kind of keeping with the film's realism, Malden did his yeah, I think he spent time with him and he famously wore Corden's hat. Right. His that famous high priest hat that he wears. And he has this great kind of sermon against the union bosses and against silence and telling, you know, the workers that Christ is with them in the docks.

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Speaker 1

Boys, this is my church. And if you don't think Christ is down here on the waterfront, cuz that's another guest, come every morning when the hiring boss blows the whistle, Jesus stands alongside you in the shape chamber. He sees by some of you get picked and some of you get passed over. He sees the family man worried about getting the rent and getting food in the house for the wife and the kids he sees.

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Speaker 1

You're selling your souls to the mob Fridays part. And what does Christ think of the easy money boys who do none of the work and take all of the gravy? And how does he feel about the fellas who wear $150 suits and diamond rings and you union dues, and you take that money? And how does he who spoke up without fear against every evil feel about your silence?

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Speaker 1

You want to know what's wrong with our waterfront? It's a lovable, lousy buck. It's make it a lovable fuck. The cushy job more important than the love of man. It's forgetting that every fella down here is your brother in Christ. But remember, Christ is always with you. Crisis in the shape up. Puppies in the hatches. And he's kneeling right here beside you.

00;18;40;28 - 00;19;01;04

Speaker 1

And he's staying with us. If you do it to the least of mine, you do it to me. What they did to Joey and what they did, the token they're doing to you and you. You all and only you. Only you, with God's help, have the power to knock, come out for good.

00;19;01;06 - 00;19;08;18

Jonathan Hafetz

So how much of a force was well cornered on the waterfront? And what is Malden's role in the film? As the as the priest?

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Warren Scharf

Let's talk a little about mold. And when I grew up with him, with whatever was streets of San Francisco TV show, and I know a lot of people love him in this role, and originally I didn't, and I didn't know if I didn't like him, the acting, or if I didn't like the pretend holier than thou. But every year, the more I see it, the more I kind of now appreciate his character and his acting in the film.

00;19;34;05 - 00;19;55;05

Warren Scharf

He seems to evolve in the film too. He gets pushed by some of the dockworkers and by even saying to like, not just talk, but to be real. When he hosts the meeting in the basement of the church and the other priest doesn't. When things turn south, the other priests like is annoyed because they're all going to be injured and endanger.

00;19;55;07 - 00;20;18;22

Warren Scharf

You know, what I read is that he's fairly closely modeled on the real priest. You know, the role of the church in these neighborhoods. I think a lot of, you know, a lot of the dockworkers were immigrants. So I think a lot of them were also, there are a few black actors playing longshoremen in this movie. But I think actually, at least in the Brooklyn Manhattan docks, the proportion of black Americans was much higher than they depict in the movie.

00;20;18;22 - 00;20;42;02

Warren Scharf

But a lot were clearly Catholic. So I always assume that the priest, both in real life and the Karl Malden character, would have had more way than perhaps somebody else in the community. But when when your livelihood and clearly your life depends on, you know, doing what you're told and not letting somebody out or not, you know, bucking the boss.

00;20;42;04 - 00;21;20;04

Warren Scharf

My guess a little like we'll talk later about Kazan. Like Kazan's got some quote where I don't mind if hurting you a little to save me from hurting myself a lot. And that was basically Kazan's quotes, so, I don't know, I always thought, like, the Karl Malden role is important, but I just kind of as I've gotten older and maybe another scene in the film where I started to appreciate his part in the movie in a way, in the beginning I thought was very little like, you're meant to feel him in the movie, which is it's like talking, but maybe we shouldn't listen because he doesn't really know what it's about.

00;21;20;07 - 00;21;28;29

Warren Scharf

And how do they show that he knows that about, like, he has a drink and a beer or he has a cigaret? I mean, like they give you those are the signals. But he's okay. He's one of us.

00;21;29;01 - 00;21;47;02

Jonathan Hafetz

There's a scene in the bar later in the movie. So basically, Charlie Brando's brother, you know, kind of tips him off that if Brando doesn't play ball and refused to cooperate, was Brando was thinking about talking to the, you know, testifying before the commission. They're going to have him killed. And Charlie sort of tips him off and lets Brando get away.

00;21;47;09 - 00;22;08;06

Jonathan Hafetz

And so for that, the mob friendly has Charlie killed. And so Brando is furious. He goes to the bar, he's going looking, he's going to try to find friendly. And here's a guy to try to kill him. And it's Malden who stops him, right? He comes into the bar, and he actually kind of going back to the fight idea hits Brando with the, I know not and knocks him out.

00;22;08;06 - 00;22;09;14

Jonathan Hafetz

I'm knocked down.

00;22;09;17 - 00;22;31;03

Warren Scharf

And that scene bothers me too, because then somebody has some of the Johnny Friendly guys get away during the, you know, that break. And I realize Brando's upset and his hand is cut because he put it through glass. You know, Terry put it through glasses, save he and Eddie from getting run over by the mob truck. But how's that priest going to knock down Perry Malloy?

00;22;31;05 - 00;22;38;02

Warren Scharf

Like, doesn't really ring true to me, but he. He does. And then they have a drink together.

00;22;38;04 - 00;22;57;08

Jonathan Hafetz

Well, then there's that line. He's like, I want a beer or give me a beer. Right. Which is that? Right. So. No. Exactly. But you know, the other thing about, which I, you, I know, kind of watching it was, you know, it's the Malden character when he talks about religion, he talks about Christ being with all the all the workers and the themes of the crucifixion.

00;22;57;13 - 00;23;09;06

Jonathan Hafetz

But he's also the one that says, look, the way to fight, right? If you want to, if you want to fight back against friendly and the corrupt union bosses, you fight through the law. You fight in the courtroom.

00;23;09;09 - 00;23;26;00

Speaker 1

You want to hurt Johnny Friendly and you want to hurt him. You want to fix him so you don't really want to finish where you think what he did to Charlie and a dozen other men who are better than Charlie. I don't finally like a hoodlum down here in the jungle, because that's just what he wants for each and every week.

00;23;26;00 - 00;23;35;14

Speaker 1

Self-Defense. You will find him in the courtroom tomorrow with the truth. As you know, the truth.

00;23;35;16 - 00;23;44;12

Speaker 1

Now, you can read about gun. Unless you haven't got the guts. And then if you haven't, then you got to hold on to it.

00;23;44;14 - 00;23;54;02

Jonathan Hafetz

You know, he's the one that says this is how you fight, right? This is how a fighter fights. It's going in and testifying before the Waterfront Crime Commission in this case.

00;23;54;05 - 00;24;15;21

Warren Scharf

Right. And maybe that's just my personal beliefs or how I was raised in Queens, but I don't know that that's not doesn't that doesn't even seem to do it in the movie. Forget the Kazan part in real life, right? Terry testifies, but then is ostracized. Yeah, I guess the ship owners turn on friendly, but it's basically because Fred friendly ends up in the water and all the workers walk behind him to show.

00;24;15;21 - 00;24;36;15

Warren Scharf

So I don't know that he's testifying is what did it? I mean, I guess there are other ways you could have asked your union leadership. Nobody crosses the line and works unless everybody works, which is what they actually end up doing. Right? We're not going in until, you know, pour forth. Terry's been beaten half to death and can barely stand.

00;24;36;15 - 00;25;02;21

Warren Scharf

And Eddie wants him left alone and and again in a scene to me, that's reminiscent of another movie I love, Wait Until Dark with Audrey Hepburn and Alan Arkin, which is a great movie from the early 70s, but without giving away it. And there is a spoiler in there, but at the end of the movie, Audrey Hepburn's character is blind, and Ephron Zimbalist, her husband, who hasn't been in most of the picture, says, like, what?

00;25;02;21 - 00;25;20;25

Warren Scharf

To me? And she's been going through a two hour terrible scenes in the movie. I'm like, well, this is what we need to make her do. But that's what they do to Teri, right? He's got to get up and walk out and march the union workers in. But the priest, you know, the Karl Malden character, he wants him to testify.

00;25;20;25 - 00;25;43;13

Warren Scharf

And that really strikes me as, is. And, you know, it is the Kazan justification. Like, I'm doing what's right because that's the enemy and we should talk. And I don't know, I'll ask you the law professor, that's a crime commission, but that's not a court, right. They're just taking they're taking sworn testimony.

00;25;43;15 - 00;26;03;06

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah. So, I mean, that's the creative commission, right? I think, as I see it. But it's sworn I think, you know, I agree. I mean, like on the one hand, Malden, you know, this is what we do in America. You know, we wind through the truth. We take things to the courtroom or the commission and we, you know, we fight with the law and the truth and the facts, not in the back alley, because that's where you're going to get beat.

00;26;03;06 - 00;26;21;17

Jonathan Hafetz

And so, you know, it is a big step in terms of Brando taking on the friendly and the corrupt bosses. But I think a lot of it is right. It's sort of ennobling the informer, which is again, kind of gets the, you know, the elephant in the room. And what I was doing with this movie. Right. And ennobling Kazan, in a sense, for testifying before the House un-American Activities Committee.

00;26;21;20 - 00;26;39;17

Jonathan Hafetz

But you're right, on the other hand, like at the end of the testimony. Right. Friendly's weakened. Right. You see, the you know that the person who's above him, saying, you know, I don't want to take Friendly's call. He's discredited. We gotta stay away from him. And Friendly's weakened. He can't at that point. He can't just go kill Brando because there's been this public attention.

00;26;39;22 - 00;26;50;24

Jonathan Hafetz

But he still has power, right? And there's this. As Brando's walking out of the courtroom or the commission room, friendly says, basically, you're never going to work again.

00;26;50;27 - 00;27;07;24

Speaker 1

And just dug your own grave performance, and you're dead on this waterfront, on every waterfront in Boston and New Orleans, you don't drive a truck or a cab. You don't push him back a draft, you don't work. No pressure.

00;27;07;27 - 00;27;24;10

Jonathan Hafetz

And you realize, actually, you know, Brando goes back, he's with even Marie Saint, and he's, like, shunned by the dockworkers, even though he stood up to to friendly and and they're like, talking about even saints trying to say, you know, we should go somewhere else. And he's like, no, no, I'm going to finish this, finish the fight and stand up to it.

00;27;24;10 - 00;27;36;21

Jonathan Hafetz

But it's until he goes to the to the docks and takes on friendly first in the physical confrontation. And then by leading the workers, and not backing down that Jacob Friendly is defeated.

00;27;36;23 - 00;28;05;15

Warren Scharf

And that's an interesting point. So that's why, you know, I know he wants him to testify, and I know that's the same thing, but it doesn't really resolve it. And it doesn't. The movie doesn't end there, right? The movie keeps going and Perry actually has to be the fighter he was. And again, I don't know, like the priest wants him to testify, whereas, you know, other priests or other people of faith might say there's other ways to find opposition and or faith, like stick together or.

00;28;05;17 - 00;28;22;06

Jonathan Hafetz

Break the law apart. You know, we can be friendly, but it's not until there's sort of like the real show of power, right? He's able to convince the workers first. He gets well after he tries to fight friendly and does eventually knock him down. It's all Friendly's goons come in. They they beat him senseless. They be Brando's sons.

00;28;22;06 - 00;28;27;08

Jonathan Hafetz

But he gets up and he leaves the workers. He shows not going to back down. Only then with the real shot does.

00;28;27;08 - 00;28;54;05

Warren Scharf

He do it right and and back to the all the real life mobsters from. Yeah, I know that Capone and the Meyer Lansky like our history. Including to the all the criminals today in and out of our government. They're never they're rarely convicted. Right. The friendly's of the world rarely got Capone does go eventually for tax evasion. Some of these guys in real life were just deported to Italy, even though they were murderers.

00;28;54;11 - 00;29;15;22

Warren Scharf

So I don't know that the testimony in the commission, even if this movie kept going, was going to lead to him losing power. He just said, but the friendly ghost, let's hide the gun there. Like, I don't know, getting the electric chair or the gas chamber ready for me. But he's not leaving you that fleeing. He's not giving up power.

00;29;15;24 - 00;29;30;03

Warren Scharf

So for me, I the lawyer, it always showed me the the limits of fairness and the judicial system in America is really kind of another important topic right now in America.

00;29;30;06 - 00;29;47;25

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah, I know for sure. I mean, there's a union. And I think because the idea is like his power is ultimately weakened. His power comes from fear, right? From these power. And if the other people don't, if the dockworkers, you know, he has them because he gets to choose who works. But if they're united, right. And if they, you know, basically say, you know, we're not going to give you this power.

00;29;47;25 - 00;30;08;25

Jonathan Hafetz

We're not going to none of us are going to work for you this way. Then, you know, Friendly's out because then the ships aren't going to get uploaded. And the people over him, right in the sort of capital system are not going to, you know, Friendly's no longer useful to him. I mean, I don't know, it was kind of a point about, to me, a little bit about like unions in terms of where they ultimately get their power from, which is the kind of solidarity it is.

00;30;08;25 - 00;30;29;04

Warren Scharf

Well, I was for many years a legal aid attorney. I was the part of the union, and we still get UAW solidarity. So, yeah, the power. But like in this movie, what is friendly do here as a corrupt criminal and union boss, he picks them off one and you know, he throws them off the roof. He throws Joey off the roof.

00;30;29;11 - 00;30;52;25

Warren Scharf

Right. The woman who's telling Eddie to be careful says they did the same thing to my son, so it's hard like it is now for even people. Some in power, even people with billions of dollars to stand up and do the right thing. They get pressured. And a lot of them, like Tarzan with where I don't know, like Kazan, really didn't have a real downside.

00;30;52;27 - 00;31;09;14

Warren Scharf

He still could have worked. And so I think during bad times people will do especially bad things and you'll get to see clearly maybe in history who who does good and who does evil when given the opportunity.

00;31;09;17 - 00;31;30;29

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah. No, I mean, the movie's very clear. Like if you cross the, you know, if you cross friendly and the and the union and the bosses, that's it. Joey is killed. He's thrown off the roof, you mentioned. And the other one of the other guys, Dugan. One of the other ones. You, working with the priest appeared before the commission and gave, you know, these pages of testimony which the union bosses get Ahold of.

00;31;30;29 - 00;31;34;03

Jonathan Hafetz

You know, they kill him. Do they drop a, you know, they drop a freight on the.

00;31;34;03 - 00;31;35;10

Warren Scharf

Irish whiskey on him?

00;31;35;12 - 00;31;36;09

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah, exactly.

00;31;36;09 - 00;32;01;10

Warren Scharf

So, but that was also interesting. Friendly gets the testimony and finds out about it. So there's clearly a link in the police or the commission on the judicial side. Right. How does he get that. He gets that through more corruption. But from the legal system when the cops after Terry's testimony, when he's escorted home by the two cops, one kind of calls them a rat.

00;32;01;12 - 00;32;10;17

Warren Scharf

So I think there's probably lots of them, both feelings, but lots of corruption. That's not just limited to the longshoremen's union.

00;32;10;19 - 00;32;26;02

Jonathan Hafetz

And that's the other thing. I mean, there's the idea of being a rat and talking to cooperating with law enforcement and the Crime Commission. You know, Brando's sort of ostracized. Right. And so I think that the idea about who's who's the rat and what does it mean to be a rat is kind of central to the movie.

00;32;26;05 - 00;32;49;10

Warren Scharf

You know, it is. And I think that was hard for me when I was younger. Well, it's probably still hard. When I was growing up in Queens, being called a rat was bad. You would never want a rat out your friend. It would happen. It's happened to me and my friends, one of my closest high school friends. I'd given them answers to the math test when he was out the day.

00;32;49;10 - 00;33;09;14

Warren Scharf

We were both good math students, but I gave him the answers, and then the teacher thought we might cheat. And so she confronted him and he never gave me up. She failed him, but he never gave me up. So that's in the movie, right? The kid who, you know, I think in real life, father, actually, I think was killed on the docks.

00;33;09;14 - 00;33;34;15

Warren Scharf

I had read the kid who plays the the good looking blond haired kid who's got who also raises pigeons and is in the same gang that Terry had started. He kills all the pigeons after Terry testifies because Terry's a rat and no good, and he wants nothing to do with them. And I think, you know, clearly that's important with what's happening in Kazan's life in Newark and testimony.

00;33;34;18 - 00;34;05;17

Warren Scharf

But I think was something that probably still runs through not just movies but American life. People when we say, don't, you know, don't snitch on your friends. Like that's a sign of loyalty. And even if your friends may have done something not good or bad, we don't look upon it is a great character trait, character trait in American society to put your hand up and volunteer that one of your own kind did something, you defend your own.

00;34;05;20 - 00;34;22;14

Warren Scharf

And so I think it was kind of hard for me in the movie because I guess my normal feeling was, yeah, maybe I'm not with Harry on this, and I'm conflicted as well. Like, even if it's bad and even if it's that's not what you should be doing.

00;34;22;16 - 00;34;41;17

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah, I really do think that boy sort of symbolizes the idea that Tommy, I think his name is right. The betrayal of the community. When Brando Malloy talks to the the crime Commission. And you're right, he was 14 at the time. His father had been killed when he was four months old by the violence, the kind of violence on the around the waterfront.

00;34;41;17 - 00;35;10;26

Jonathan Hafetz

He was, you know, living in Hoboken with his widowed mother, and he was cast. I think it's exactly right. It is a, you know, it is a real issue. And, I guess I mean, turning to kind of Kazan, this is the other sort of like subtheme of the movie is that, you know, right. Despite being ostensibly a story about union corruption, you know, it's to some extent a parable about Kazan, who testifies before the House un-American Activities Committee, which is created in 1938 by the House of Representatives to investigate disloyalty and subversive activities.

00;35;10;29 - 00;35;27;04

Jonathan Hafetz

I'll put quotes in those terms on the part of private citizens, public employees and organizations suspected of fascist or communist ties. And one of the main targets, right, was Hollywood. What, in fact, the House un-American activities Committee have. Why did target Hollywood?

00;35;27;06 - 00;35;51;08

Warren Scharf

I'm certainly no expert. It starts, though, in the late 30s, and I think originally it was all kinds of subversives. And I think that included fascism at the time and obviously the 30s, 40s, the Red scare, the war, the Russians and the Nazis. We're still playing it out today. Roy Cohn is instrumental in Newark, and he still lingers on in his influences with Trump.

00;35;51;11 - 00;36;12;04

Warren Scharf

So I mean, this stuff, our history is not very old. So I think, you know, from what I know, Kazan and I think it came up in later Oscars when they gave him like a lifetime award. Right. He I think voluntarily agrees. Right. I think there were some people fled, some people testified, some people, you know, wouldn't name names.

00;36;12;08 - 00;36;39;18

Warren Scharf

He not only, I don't know, voluntarily testify and name names, including Odets. But then he took out a full page advertisement in the paper to justify and to encourage others to do it. I still think that regardless of the topic, America doesn't usually appreciate people who voluntarily read, even if they agree with the court. I even if they agree with what the testimony is.

00;36;39;18 - 00;37;05;07

Warren Scharf

And since lots of people didn't, and lots of people, including Kazan, were during, you know, terrible times in the 20s and 30s for short periods of time were members of the Communist Party. Regardless of what I think about the Communist Party, whether you don't have to go and name other people, you can go talk about yourself, just admit to what you did not tell what other people did, including people who were your friends.

00;37;05;07 - 00;37;31;03

Warren Scharf

And so, so write this movie, which is not just seen as an apology for in defense for what he did, I don't know, resonated for years when they gave him a lifetime award, some would clap and applaud. I read Meryl Streep was one and you know, and others, Warren Beatty and then some. I don't know it. Asner refused to stand up and acknowledge him, and probably some know about what went on and some don't.

00;37;31;03 - 00;38;01;10

Warren Scharf

Some say, which is also a hard thing, like, I love this movie and I may not approve of what he did. I probably don't approve of what he did because I wouldn't testify against my friends, even if they did the wrong thing. I'd like to think that that's part of my dreams. Base core. I don't start out with how can I help and volunteer to testify, but on the other hand, the movie is spectacular and he was really a very talented director, not just the film.

00;38;01;10 - 00;38;20;03

Warren Scharf

And so I know you'd ask me that, and I'm not sure I know what my own answer is, is can you separate the art from the artist? And probably most of the time I can, because I don't know enough about the artist to know what bad things they did. Probably they knew something about everybody. I would might not like any art, but I was thinking about Bogner.

00;38;20;03 - 00;38;36;14

Warren Scharf

I love Tristan and his all day. I like, I assume, The Merchant of Venice, but it's not a very favorable depiction, and I can go on and on, and there are lots of films that are on the show. No, I'm not saying the same thing, but I don't really watch Kevin. You don't see Kevin Spacey movies a lot anymore.

00;38;36;14 - 00;39;02;23

Warren Scharf

And so he is separate the film from Kazan. But the huge part is big here because it's his life and his apology. But I don't know. I'd ask you, Jonathan, in real life, he's testifying about people he knows and used to know, and some whom were his friends, about what he says is a great threat to America. Perry, testifying.

00;39;02;25 - 00;39;25;10

Warren Scharf

I don't know that Terry's testifying mostly because of the unfair control of the union. They killed his brother, and he wants revenge for the killing of his brother. And that seems to me very kind of Perry like primal base instinct. So I don't know that Kazan who might want to see himself in Perry. I don't know that they're equivalent.

00;39;25;12 - 00;39;43;16

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah. That's interesting. Like the motivations. You know, I think he's. Well, he's motivated by his love for Eddie and obviously by desire for revenge and kind of Malden. And the priest steers him away from physical violence that kind of points. Points him and points the fire in the direction of kind of testifying and standing up in a different way.

00;39;43;18 - 00;39;59;11

Jonathan Hafetz

But yeah, you're right. I mean, I mean, I do think he moves some. I think he does to some extent. See what's wrong with all of it, all the corruption, even in the scene in the car with his brother Charlie, he says, you know, there's got to be more like it. Sort of dawns on him and he kind of connects it to his own personal life and the problems of the corruption.

00;39;59;11 - 00;40;13;16

Jonathan Hafetz

But, you know, I agree. I mean, he's, you know, he has mixed motives, maybe. But the other thing is, a lot of the other stuff was basically just a witch hunt. Right? And so then going after people in a lot of ways, it's, you know, talk about something today, it seems it feels like we.

00;40;13;16 - 00;40;13;25

Warren Scharf

Do the.

00;40;13;25 - 00;40;33;21

Jonathan Hafetz

Same thing I which on today. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Whereas you know, in the film this guy was, you know, friendly was bad guy. I mean, they were killing people, right? That was corruption, right? I mean, if you're going to be a, you know, a rat. And so to speak or inform, I mean, it's not a bad context to inform, but that wasn't the context that Kazan was informing about.

00;40;33;21 - 00;40;42;09

Jonathan Hafetz

And the reason he informed, you know, was because he wanted he I think he basically said it was he did it so he could have his, you know, his habits, career. Yeah.

00;40;42;10 - 00;41;15;09

Warren Scharf

Keep working. Right. Self-motivation. Yeah. That doesn't strike me as a very I disagree with virtually everything that happens in the United States every day today. But I have the least respect, which is hard in this panoply of who I have the least respect for, for both the people who should know better and who don't seem to have any fixed positions in their life and just do whatever they can to they can either have power or money.

00;41;15;11 - 00;41;40;17

Warren Scharf

And those people to me, if you and I were in Dante's Inferno or in a deeper level of hell, then people who I might disagree with vehemently but at least believed in their own cause. And, you know, I get the feeling from Kazan because it was like I wanted to work and it was going to affect me. And I think, wow, that's not a great motivating factor.

00;41;40;19 - 00;42;01;19

Warren Scharf

But I'd say he got his karma or, you know, like he got his treatment for the rest of his life. So I guess people should do what they believe based on principle. But I think, unfortunately, it's not that I worry about Terry's motivation. I know Terry's a deep thinker, but you know, Perry realizes in the card that he could have had a lot.

00;42;01;19 - 00;42;27;06

Warren Scharf

He could have been the contender and that life didn't work out well for him. I'm not sure Terry quite had the epiphany, the unfairness of the doc. Terry was sitting a lot, you know, in the no show job in the back to I'm not faulting am I just think there's a lot of self-interest going on. But I guess if he was most self-interested and he could have just left with Eddie, I mean, they could have just left.

00;42;27;08 - 00;42;28;15

Warren Scharf

They don't.

00;42;28;18 - 00;42;43;21

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah, I mean, Charlie does say them. Look, I mean, obviously he lost his shot, but he said, you know, you will set you up. We'll give you this higher position. You never have to work. You can have a cushy life. And he sort of says, and you know, obviously played, you know, brilliantly by Brando that there's got to be something that's gotta be something more.

00;42;43;27 - 00;42;53;15

Jonathan Hafetz

So, you know, I, I agree, I don't think he's the most articulate, thoughtful thinker, but I do think he thinks about something, you know, kind of off kilter about it. But you're right. I mean, he's certainly driven by.

00;42;53;18 - 00;43;13;08

Warren Scharf

But he's very different from Eddie, who is thoughtful. And she's pushing him to do the right thing because it's the right thing. I mean, she does want revenge for what happened to her brother. Or revenge is right. Justice, perhaps, is the right word, but she seems to be pushing more for the like. We got to stand up and do the right thing.

00;43;13;08 - 00;43;15;13

Warren Scharf

She's not afraid at all?

00;43;15;15 - 00;43;17;07

Jonathan Hafetz

No. Right, exactly.

00;43;17;10 - 00;43;31;23

Warren Scharf

He's not afraid. She's down in the. He's down in the basement of the church. I realize he's with Terry, but they're hitting with bat. And they came to hurt. And so she seems like a very tough character. She just seems to be doing it more out of the right reason.

00;43;31;25 - 00;43;49;09

Jonathan Hafetz

I mean, just going back to Kazan for a minute, you know, one of the things in anger is you present. What you're saying is, you know, well, one, he didn't, you know, he would sort of willingly testify, didn't put up much of a fight, if any. And the other is that he had sort of significant amount of clout at the time, I mean, unlike, you know, more than, more than many others.

00;43;49;09 - 00;44;14;08

Jonathan Hafetz

Right. So, yeah. So when Kazan was called before the committee in 1952, he was already a leading director of Broadway in Hollywood. He directed Arthur Miller's Death of a salesman on stage in 1949, the film adaption of Streetcar Named Desire in 1951. So people think he could have pushed back, but instead he testifies. And as you said, he takes out this full page ad in New York Times two days after testifying, justifying his decision and calling on other people to do so.

00;44;14;15 - 00;44;23;09

Jonathan Hafetz

And, you know, you can see that you see that in the movie through Terry when he's at the end, when he's like, I'm glad I did it. I'm glad I testified again. Friendly.

00;44;23;11 - 00;44;47;20

Speaker 1

You read it. Very nice. Terry. How are you, Stan? Maybe, but I'm still here now. I was raised on myself all my years. I didn't even know it. Come on, you got the jury, you got the job, and you got there. Charlie was running your own. You think you're God almighty, but you know what you are. I might get a cheap, lousy, dirty, stinking mug and I'm glad what I've done to you.

00;44;47;23 - 00;44;56;22

Unknown

Get it out. I'm glad what I've done. I'm not taken for granted. Come on. Come.

00;44;56;24 - 00;45;23;17

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah. So I mean, it's a it's problematic. And Arthur Miller interestingly. Right. That was a rupture between them. Right. They had been close friends. Yes. Historian. Book. Victor Nevsky naming names where Miller, whose success had owed so much to Kazan's directing of death of a salesman, sends because Anne Miller sends Kazan a copy of his play A view from the bridge without critically, without informing, and then writes back.

00;45;23;24 - 00;45;41;00

Jonathan Hafetz

So the story goes, I would be honored to direct it. And Miller says, you don't understand. I didn't send it to you because I wanted you to direct it. I sent it to you because I wanted I wanted you to know what I think of stool pigeons. So, you know, there are consequences then. And they they reverberate, including at the 1999 Oscars that you mentioned.

00;45;41;02 - 00;46;01;18

Warren Scharf

You know, though, I'm not going to push back from my own position on this is that it is hard since I'm calling. I am a film buff. I'm not a film historian or an historian. It's hard to know what pressures people feel when they're doing things in the time they were living. I mean, it was a very bad time in America with the Red scare.

00;46;01;18 - 00;46;24;02

Warren Scharf

But what we've come out of depression and World war and the Holocaust, and then atom bombs and Russians with bombs and spies. So I, I guess I think if you want to say something, talk about your own opinion, but don't you don't have to throw everybody else under the bus if it's only to get yourself a better job.

00;46;24;02 - 00;46;49;02

Warren Scharf

It's hard for me to respect that. Firstly, when you yourself were a communist earlier, whether I agree or disagree. So, and I'm not sure, you know, a lot of it was about Hollywood, clearly, but it wasn't. Yes. And other obviously people did things under pseudonyms, but I'm not sure Broadway was affected in the same way Hollywood was. So the clear up thing is like maybe like, what were you actually at risk of?

00;46;49;04 - 00;47;07;18

Warren Scharf

And what did you think when you were doing it? Did you really think this was going to be useful and help? Because I think part of his defense later in life was he didn't name any names they didn't have. And I think he. But you haven't been arrested by the Gestapo and they're torturing you for names like. And I think that's exactly what's happening now in America.

00;47;07;18 - 00;47;33;00

Warren Scharf

Everybody muzzling themselves. That's the times headline today. And silencing themselves. And I get it. If you are the to your point, Jonathan, if you're the person who's greatly at risk and I understand why you're not out in front leading the charge, people should protect you. But there are a lot of billionaires in America who probably don't like or hopefully don't like what's going on.

00;47;33;00 - 00;47;58;11

Warren Scharf

And it'd be nice if they could say something, both individually and collectively to say like, we run businesses and we're capitalists and we denounce this and everybody run for their own monetary interest. And some people are real with in history, some people really are at risk, and some people do very valiant things and pay the price or escape from it.

00;47;58;13 - 00;48;24;21

Warren Scharf

But it doesn't seem like I'd be curious what Fred John was under and whether he really needed to do it, because he doesn't sound like he was a true believer, according to his own testimony about why he did it. And then he just strikes me as I don't know, certain vice presidents who went to Yale Law School like, okay, their positions seem to have evolved very quickly from recently from all kinds of thing.

00;48;24;24 - 00;48;38;11

Warren Scharf

So when were you lying to us? But I think this time in history is going to do a lot like the 50s. You're going to see people do a lot of bad things, and then we'll see how, you know, whoever ultimately wins will write the history of how they're viewed.

00;48;38;14 - 00;48;56;03

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah, I just give credit where, you know, a number of people stood up. But one of the more prominent ones was Dalton Trumbo, who refuses. He's blacklisted from Hollywood. I think it is different. But in the New York theater? Yeah, for a decade. He does win two Oscars under a pseudonym. So there's someone and then there are others.

00;48;56;03 - 00;49;12;24

Jonathan Hafetz

I mean, it is important to sort of take into account some of the pressures people were under. You know, Lee Jacob was friendly. A Johnny Friendly in the movie also testified. But it's a little bit different, right? He refused for two years. Right. So he pushed back for two years. Although he's a famous and highly regarded actor, he didn't have the power that Kazan had.

00;49;13;01 - 00;49;34;02

Jonathan Hafetz

And he, you know, explained, he said, basically talked about the fear. He talked about, you know, lack of money, lack of being able to get work. You know, he does it. So the choices are tough. People made different ones. But I think I mean, I just liked Kazan's well his choice. And then his decision to make a movie, an apology or justification about it is, you know, adds another layer.

00;49;34;05 - 00;49;46;15

Jonathan Hafetz

Now that's it. I you know, I agree. I mean, I think the movie stands regardless. It's a, you know, it's a it's a masterpiece and it's filled with other themes. But I don't think you can, you know, you can't watch it without talking about it, thinking about because I know.

00;49;46;18 - 00;50;17;11

Warren Scharf

But so many other people, like so many other, are gonna Zero Mostel, so many Jack Gilford, so many other famous people were called to testify. And people, zero myself, I remember right. He like, defended political freedom, and his right to think and say what he thought and and then he had adverse effects on his career and lots of people did so I think equally, you can't separate it because I intended it, but I'd say, like, if you don't like we just showed it at work.

00;50;17;14 - 00;50;40;00

Warren Scharf

So many of our staff, our staff, my staff were much younger, don't have any of the history and the UCK and the names don't mean much or anything to them. And so they just watched the movie on the face without the context of was it an apology? Was it a defense? You know, what is it? Should we should we be able to enjoy it?

00;50;40;00 - 00;51;03;22

Warren Scharf

But for me, funny, because in thinking about it, I don't particularly respect his and for what he did, but I'd be hard pressed to say he wasn't a genius at making movies because not only do I think so, but like the most famous actors think he was a genius. And Kubrick and famous directors, can you separate the art from the person?

00;51;03;24 - 00;51;32;03

Warren Scharf

And I guess I usually do because I don't usually I don't usually pay attention to everything the director or the actor says. There's even there's stuff going on now and there's stuff with JK Rowling and there's stuff with everyone and I. I understand how people who are personally affected or don't agree can't be separated, but and I could understand how Holocaust survivors, I think my parents wouldn't listen to Faulkner, but I like listening to Tristan and Isolde.

00;51;32;04 - 00;51;56;18

Warren Scharf

I can't say that I don't, and I could see how those are hard issues until it either retreats so far to the past or like my young staff, you don't have the relevant history or or maybe it doesn't interest you, but I think it adds such a deeper layer to watching this actually brilliant film, which I'd be hard pressed to say isn't in my top 15.

00;51;56;21 - 00;52;07;08

Jonathan Hafetz

I mean, I agree, and it's in this one, you know, it's hard to it's not. It's how much separating the are on the artist because there's, you know, like the artist who made this movie did bad things. This is about that thing.

00;52;07;09 - 00;52;27;23

Warren Scharf

It is about that thing. Yeah. So but I could but I don't know when I used to read, I don't know, we'd read it was a Roald Dahl bookstore daughter, and then I'd read about his life and I think, whoa, this is bad. Like, and then you could see some of it coming through, even in children's books. So I think a lot of people have a lot of stuff, and we don't normally inquire.

00;52;27;23 - 00;52;52;25

Warren Scharf

I don't inquire when I go to the supermarket, like I might ask, like, you know, is it organic or, you know, where was it sourced? But I don't I don't know if the owner of the store always is a good person or a bad person. So I love this film though, and I think the performances are apart from the history, the theory, the reading, the Waterfront Commission, just as a film Bernstein score is just genius.

00;52;52;28 - 00;53;16;22

Warren Scharf

Like perfect. Well, I mean, there's so many. Look at what Steiger, Jacob Marlon Brando in and what people think is, you know, one of, if not one of the greatest performances ever on screen. I think they're just so many things that are perfect about this movie, including the score. And the cinematography is brilliant and the lines are great.

00;53;16;22 - 00;53;22;22

Warren Scharf

So I don't know, it seems to have the test of time and then I think the history will receive.

00;53;22;24 - 00;53;39;07

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah, it holds up extremely well. And I mean, I agree with all those things you said. I mean, it's sort of the complete package and there's not there's really not a wasted scene, wasted moment. I mean, it's just superbly done. I mean, everything, you know, as you kind of watch and watch it again and again, it's just everything is there and works kind of, I think perfectly.

00;53;39;12 - 00;53;43;26

Jonathan Hafetz

You know, other than, other than I think Brando would have knocked out friendly with the punches we talked about.

00;53;44;00 - 00;54;05;17

Warren Scharf

Yeah. Okay. So that's our one. That's our one, Shane. It's not like he should have knocked him out because that would have ruined. Right? The point in the film, I just always felt like maybe family could have cheated with a knife or something. They'd done something. He did grip them or kick them. But I wanted something that seems sneaky or because that would have justified it.

00;54;05;19 - 00;54;23;00

Warren Scharf

And I'd say for me, the test, when I think of my favorite films, that they get better and better every time I watch and I, I've seen that film, you know, dozens of times, but I've seen everything on my top ten or my top 100 list so many times I don't know. And I say they get they just get better.

00;54;23;07 - 00;54;32;05

Warren Scharf

I don't get bored. I see things that I didn't see before. I enjoy them even more, like, you know, like a Beethoven symphony. I could hear it again and again.

00;54;32;08 - 00;54;45;13

Jonathan Hafetz

And, you know, we can't wrap up without talking about, you know, one of the small, uncredited roles in the film by an actor. I think you're fond of Fred Gwynne. Very young, very young looking. Fred Glenn.

00;54;45;15 - 00;55;05;27

Warren Scharf

Yeah. So I he's uncredited, but I grew up with him on TV, and I definitely saw him at the Shakespeare Theater in Connecticut when I was in junior high school. They bused us from Queens to see. I don't remember what it was. It might have been Julius Caesar and Fred Gwynne was in it. We are very excited because it was Fred Gwynne.

00;55;06;00 - 00;55;30;11

Warren Scharf

So he's he's got the same head and he's obviously a big guy in a kind of an odd looking person. And he and he's sitting in that box in front of the commission when they're all waiting to testify. And I'm very good. He's the treasurer. He's one of them. The union. So for me, it was, it's always been a thrill, but I say, like, my father didn't watch The Munsters, so it doesn't mean anything to see Fred Gwynne on the scene.

00;55;30;11 - 00;55;55;10

Warren Scharf

There are other famous. When I was looking at the cast again, there are other people who are very well-known people in small and uncredited parts, which I always look at. You don't always read the trivia, and one of the ones I just saw, which I didn't actually, I've never paid attention to, is Martin Balsam is the backup investigator, so he is a famous and has a great career.

00;55;55;17 - 00;56;21;16

Warren Scharf

But Martin Balsam is that other investigator. He's up on the roof with the more seasoned investigator cop who saw Terry Box. But it's Nehemiah first off as the cab driver. And he was in so many things and he plays one of my favorite roles. He's in some like It Hot. He plays little Bonaparte. He's the crime boy. When I was watching the movie last time, I couldn't place him, but I said, I know that faith, and that's who it is.

00;56;21;16 - 00;56;32;03

Warren Scharf

He was in hundreds of things TV, movies, but he plays in Some Like It Hot, also on everybody's top ten list, cop comedy. And he has a good part in that too.

00;56;32;06 - 00;56;45;19

Jonathan Hafetz

I should say, for listeners of the podcast, two of those actors at least, were in very famous movies Freud, when, of course, plays the The Southern Judge and My Cousin Vinny. And Martin Balsam is one of the jurors in 12 Angry Men.

00;56;45;26 - 00;57;05;16

Warren Scharf

Right. And which it also make good on my top 15. And since there are so few in my mind, so few good law movie. I mean, there's law in movies, but so many they were often not so good. But I think they're not always in my list. But Full of Angry Men clearly is one of those. Yeah, he's great in that to Warren.

00;57;05;16 - 00;57;12;12

Jonathan Hafetz

It's been so great having you on the podcast. Thanks so much for coming on and talking about this great film On the Waterfront.

00;57;12;14 - 00;57;42;09

Warren Scharf

Thank you Jonathan. I've enjoyed our conversation. It makes me think both more about the movie, which I like, because it's a spectacular film with so many good parts. But also thanks for sending me things to more to read about, about the docs and the articles written about the syndicate and about how you act, because all of this still resonates today and so it's not only good for me to think about it with the movie, but to think about a part of American history that actually overlaps with my life.

00;57;42;09 - 00;57;45;03

Warren Scharf

So thank you, Jonathan.