00;00;00;22 - 00;00;37;15

Jonathan Hafetz

Hi, I'm Jonathan Heifetz, and welcome to Law and Film, a podcast that explores the rich connections between law and film. Law is critical to many films. Film, in turn, tells us a lot about the law. In each episode, we'll examine a film that's noteworthy from a legal perspective. What legal issues does the film explore? What does it get right about the law and what does it get wrong?

00;00;37;17 - 00;00;57;16

Jonathan Hafetz

How is law important to understanding the film? And what does the film teach us about the law and about the larger social and cultural context in which it operates? This week we're going to look at two things. We're going to look at a recent list of law films you won't want to miss that was published in U.S. News and World Report.

00;00;57;17 - 00;01;16;13

Jonathan Hafetz

And that includes the most captivating legal themed movies. What movies are on the list? What movies did not make the cut? And what can be learned about the conception of law movies? And if good or great law movies? When we think about that term. Well, then we'll get one film on the list. That may be something of a surprise.

00;01;16;19 - 00;01;45;06

Jonathan Hafetz

Miracle on 34th Street, a 1947 movie written and directed by George Seaton, based on a story by Valentine Davies and featuring Maureen O'Hara, John Payne, Natalie Wood and Edmund Gwenn in this holiday classic. The events director of Macy's department store in New York City. Doris Walker, played by Maureen O'Hara, has an old man named Kris Kringle, played by Edmund Gwenn, who won an Oscar as Best Supporting Actor in the role to serve as Macy's Santa Claus.

00;01;45;07 - 00;02;04;20

Jonathan Hafetz

After the prior Santa is fired for drinking on the job, Kringle not only resembles Santa Claus, but he believes he's Santa. He's welcomed into his home and makes a very favorable impression on Doris, his daughter Susan, played by Natalie Wood, who Doris somewhat sternly has raised not to believe in fairytales. Kringle also makes quite an impression at work.

00;02;04;22 - 00;02;24;12

Jonathan Hafetz

He advises one customer to go to another store when Macy's can't fulfill her son's request for a particular toy. Instead of trying to sell her something else that Macy's has in stock. This turns out to be a public relations stroke of genius, demonstrating Macy's concern for and loyalty to its customers. But Kringle success at Macy's is short lived.

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Jonathan Hafetz

He gets into a dispute with another employee, who is convinced Kringle is delusional and insists he be fired and put in a mental hospital. A civil commitment hearing takes place where the question centers on whether Kringle belief that he is Santa Claus shows he's insane. Well, not often thought of as a movie miracle on 34th Street raises interesting questions about how law should treat beliefs, as well as a glimpse into a mid century civil commitment proceeding.

00;02;50;01 - 00;03;12;14

Jonathan Hafetz

My guest this episode is Ashley Merryman, who, among other things, is the author of The Last Law films you Won't want to miss. Ashley is the bestselling author of two books. Ashley's book, Nurture Shot, coauthored with Po Bronson, was on the New York Times bestseller list for more than six months and was an Amazon Top Nonfiction 100 book for over a year.

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Jonathan Hafetz

It's been translated into 20 languages. Their follow up, Top Dog The Science of Winning and Losing, was another instant New York Times bestseller with foreign translations around the world. Ashley writes for U.S. News and World Report, where she writes about the business and practice of law. She's also written for Newsweek, The New York Times, Time Magazine, Washington Post, CNN.com, The Guardian, ESPN, and other publications.

00;03;40;15 - 00;03;58;21

Jonathan Hafetz

She has two degrees which are particularly relevant to this podcast. One is a Bachelor of Fine Arts from USC School of Cinematic Arts, as well as a JD from Georgetown University. As it was great to read your law films, you won't want to miss piece in U.S. News and World Report. And it's a pleasure to have you on the podcast.

00;03;58;23 - 00;04;07;19

Ashley Merryman

Oh, thank you so much. And I mean, I interviewed you for the piece. So you already were a big help in informing my thinking in terms of what should be on the list and not.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah, it's such a great idea to kind of think about movie list as a movie list, and people can find the article that's posted in the show notes. Well, we have the ten movies that made it and kind of just see what led you to put these on the list and what didn't make the cut but might have.

00;04;21;10 - 00;04;53;10

Jonathan Hafetz

So the top ten movies in alphabetical order, not in any order of ranking, are 12 Angry Men from 1957. Anatomy of a murder from 1959. A Few Good Men from 1992 Erin Brockovich from 2000. Inherit the wind from 1960. Judgment and Nuremberg, 1961. The Lincoln Lawyer, 2011. Marshall, 2017. Miracle on 34th Street, 1947. My Cousin Vinny from 1992.

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Jonathan Hafetz

To Kill a mockingbird from 1962. The trial of the Chicago seven from 2020. And last but not least, in my view anyway, witness for the prosecution from 1957. So, Ashley, how did you go about making this list and what were some of the things that led you to put these movies on it as opposed to some others?

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Ashley Merryman

Well, you know, it was interesting. It sort of became this extra central question, what is a law film? And some things just sort of leaped out to me. Out agreement was right there at the top of the list. So I was looking for films where law or lawyers was, or a legal proceeding was sort of the core of the movie, and it drove the story.

00;05;35;11 - 00;06;02;01

Ashley Merryman

And ideally it actually educated people about what the practice of law really is like. There's one, I think, notable exception. We'll get you on that front, but I think that, you know, not being cavalier about the law was a thing where there were some movies that I was like, oh, this is a good movie. But it didn't make the list because I thought they were just playing too fast and loose and almost misleading people in terms of some legal issues, especially like plot points.

00;06;02;04 - 00;06;05;19

Jonathan Hafetz

Taking the law seriously was a key criteria.

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Ashley Merryman

Well, My Cousin Vinny is on the list, so taking the law legit admittedly.

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Movie Dialogue

May be a better.

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Ashley Merryman

Way to say.

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Movie Dialogue

It than seriously.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah, I've thought about that. Yeah, because My Cousin Vinny is, well, it's a comedy, a great comedy. And while the plot, I think is somewhat, perhaps outlandish in some respects, I think certain features of the movie are also a little bit unrealistic. The actual courtroom scenes are quite good. I talked about it on an earlier podcast with Judge Jed Rakoff from the Southern District, who's as good a judge of the accuracy of a courtroom scene as anyone, and concurs.

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Ashley Merryman

Yeah, I think that what's interesting about Cousin Vinny is, you know, it's a classic fish out of water story, and it is absolutely a farce. And the things that happen outside the courtroom scenes are just literal slapstick, right? Falling down in mud. You know, the fistfight that never happens, that kind of thing. But in the court, it's much, much more respectful to what an actual case would be.

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Ashley Merryman

It's still just as funny. I'm not a big slapstick fan. So for me, the courtroom scenes are funnier.

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Movie Dialogue

Than.

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Ashley Merryman

The slapstick, but it really is sort of paying attention to the law and not being dismissive of it, and using weird legal quirks of protocol and policy to drive the story forward, as opposed to something that we should just ignore as inconvenient. Because as the screenwriter, you don't want to necessarily be so slavish to the facts that you miss the story.

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Ashley Merryman

But I think the Great Law films uses legal quirks to further the story, rather than being some an annoyance. We should just ignore.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Gags are a great point, and I think My Cousin Vinny illustrates that well. And it sort of brings up like one of the challenges. It's easy to criticize movies about law for inaccuracies, but the challenge as a filmmaker screenwriter, director is you're making a movie that's supposed to have entertainment value, or dramatic purpose, or comedic purpose or some combination, and, you know, you have to take some degree of license.

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Jonathan Hafetz

I mean, trials are criminal proceedings, and trials are I mean, that's just long, right? You can't fit a trial into two hours. But they're also often kind of quite prosaic, right? There's a lot of dull things that happens. You've got to kind of telescope the action. So how do you do that. How do you kind of take that dramatic license while still being kind of true to the law in the courtroom?

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Ashley Merryman

I think it's about being judicious, hitting the points that are the most important. Now, most important might not, in the case of film, be the most important legal proceeding. It might be the thing that's the most important in terms of the character or the plot, but, you know, picking those things that really can be sort of transformative in the moment.

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Jonathan Hafetz

I don't know if you have favorites on your list, but any other you particularly want to talk about on this top ten list?

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Ashley Merryman

Well, you know, actually, I really loved all of them. And I watched every movie again with the exception of miracle on 34th Street, because I know every word by heart.

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Movie Dialogue

I didn't need to see that one again.

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Ashley Merryman

But there were some that I was like, wow, I don't know if I've seen this movie. It was originally it released, and it was also interesting because I was ending up watching 5 or 6 legal movies back to back, just sitting on a Saturday binging. Ding ding ding. And that also changed how I thought about what made a good legal movie like in real time, something I thought would be great.

00;09;16;10 - 00;09;35;28

Ashley Merryman

And then I would watch something else. Oh yeah, that was also round. So some of my favorites besides miracle. I'm a huge fan of witness the prosecution, and I think that's one that a lot of the people who've been reading the article didn't see, you know, they were like, oh, well, I've seen half of them. And I just guessed that one of the ones they've missed is witnesses for the prosecution.

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Ashley Merryman

And I'm just like, you.

00;09;36;18 - 00;09;40;13

Movie Dialogue

Must see witness. That's a Gibson.

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Ashley Merryman

The character's movie.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah, I think, I mean, it's Billy Wilder, one of the great directors of all time. And the cast to, I mean, Charles Laughton is just amazing. Yeah, it's the kind of British English barrister in his sort of twilight of his career, as is Marlene Dietrich. And he's a great movie and a great kind of story to.

00;10;02;04 - 00;10;30;06

Ashley Merryman

Well, and one of the things in terms of what I realized, what makes a great, not just good, but a great movie, is that the lawyer is facing a personal jeopardy in peril, all with the jeopardy that the clients and the cases are facing. And witness for prosecution is a wonderful example of that, because as much of the concern when you're watching the movie is that lamb just got out of the hospital for having a heart attack, and you're not sure if he's going to be able to live through the trial?

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Ashley Merryman

Right. I mean, he's literally popping nitroglycerin through the entire trial. So you're is worried about him physically and him as a character as you are. Will Tyrone Power be convicted of murder? And I think that that is one of the things that moves witness for prosecution and other movies up onto this next level. So another great example in terms of the stakes could not be higher.

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Ashley Merryman

I mean, I wrote this is a line in my article is Marshall because in Marshall you have a defendant on trial and a black defendant in the South, or actually Connecticut, but it feels like the.

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Movie Dialogue

South, doesn't it?

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Ashley Merryman

And and he faces prison and God knows what's going to happen when he's there. At the same time, both of the lawyers who are representing him are facing personal career threats and threats to their physical safety, difficulty and separation from their families. And if they don't win the case, the entire case ACP legal program will go away. So in every aspect, every motion, every press statement, every joke or little barb between the two of them has so many more ramifications than just your average court case.

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Ashley Merryman

And each one of those would have been an amazing story. But to have all of them simultaneously and it's a true story.

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Movie Dialogue

Is just.

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Ashley Merryman

It's amazing.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Another one I like on your list, I mean, they're all great is anatomy of a murder I think is is one of the most realistic in terms of the way it depicts the courtroom scenes. Yeah. We covered this on earlier podcast with Jimmy Stewart as the small town lawyer defending the ex-Marine who was accused of murder. Love to talk about that one.

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Jonathan Hafetz

That has some other stakes, too, but I think it's like such a good courtroom movie.

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Ashley Merryman

Yeah, well, I think it's sort of the quintessential courtroom movie in terms of how does a trial operate. And then trial is not necessarily about determining truth, but it's about the arguments between the lawyers and the grandstanding or which thing is submitted as much as what happens. I'm still not as completely sure I know what happens is I am when.

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Movie Dialogue

I started watching that movie.

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Ashley Merryman

And I mean, I love Jimmy Stewart, but I don't think people mostly would think of Jimmy Stewart as an antihero, and he borders on that in this movie. The first thing he tells the young woman whose husband is on trial and the reason he's on trial, is because he learns that she's been raped by that someone he's been, whether he does or does not kill.

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Ashley Merryman

And instead of, you know, the story of being comforting or supportive to the victim, Jimmy Stewart is all about, here's what I want you to wear, and here's what I want you to act like, and it comes across as so manipulative. Now, granted, Lee Remick victim is not very likable, and sympathetic is a victim either. She's this coquettish, flirty.

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Ashley Merryman

We don't know what's going on with her either, so there's really no characters to root for. And that even includes Jimmy. And I just mean, you just look at Jimmy Stewart and you want to root for him, so it's kind of amazing, right? But I think it's interesting. And I made a point of watching the next day or so.

00;13;33;01 - 00;13;56;12

Ashley Merryman

I wanted to have a little bit separation, but I watched anatomy of a fall, which is definitely, you know, the descendant of anatomy of a murder. And in so many ways, it's very much the close examination of a trial and testimony and having people argue in different points of view. And then you also get this fun exposure to the French trial system, which I don't think most of us have ever seen before.

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Ashley Merryman

So how they handle witnesses is different. But the core in terms of how a trial is about how the facts are presented and how everybody the lawyers, the witnesses interact as much or more than actually we'd like it to be by the facts, but it's not necessarily about them.

00;14;13;29 - 00;14;34;29

Jonathan Hafetz

It's such a great point. The Anatomy of Murder. It's about kind of a construction of a truth that's sort of a little bit more cynical or darker. Look at a trial as is not just a search for truth in justice, and I agree also give me Stewart. He made a string of movies, later, I think a little later than this with Anthony Matthew, including Winchester, Winchester 73, where he's, he's playing a kind of darker character.

00;14;34;29 - 00;14;43;09

Jonathan Hafetz

So he does have that aspect and Anatomy of Fall, too. Yeah. It is. It is kind of the successor to Anatomy of Murder and the dissection of the French criminal trial.

00;14;43;13 - 00;15;12;15

Ashley Merryman

Great movie from the title on down. But I think it's so different. And this goes back to what's a lot of movie because Jimmy Stewart, Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, is about law. It's about arguing legal procedures and what is the right law to have. But that did not make the list. Broke my heart. But in terms of, you know, I tried to stick to things that were more about a specific case and not things that were about litigating an issue in the public or exploring something.

00;15;12;15 - 00;15;16;23

Ashley Merryman

But there really was at least one legal issue legal dispute.

00;15;16;26 - 00;15;20;17

Jonathan Hafetz

Any other movies that you, felt strongly about on the list?

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Ashley Merryman

You know, it's interesting. A Few Good Men made its own case because I think that the the cross between Tom cruise and Jack Nicholson is one of the most famous scenes in all film, not just legal film, but all of film. So the impact that that one exchange had kind of even made the rest of the movie moot.

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Movie Dialogue

It's not. It's a good movie. I enjoyed the movie.

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Ashley Merryman

And it's interesting in terms of looking at legal strategy as a product of the personality of the lawyer, the Tom cruise characters, really. He's all about never seeing the inside of a courtroom. He just wants to cut a deal no matter what the case is. So I think that was something that was, you know, just had to be on the list.

00;16;00;06 - 00;16;02;07

Ashley Merryman

But it was kind of an interesting reason why.

00;16;02;13 - 00;16;16;01

Jonathan Hafetz

When I tell people I have this podcast about law on film, look at law through film, terms of law, I think probably the movie that most people say are you doing is A Few Good Men? I think you're right. I think it's because of that iconic scene.

00;16;16;04 - 00;16;35;08

Ashley Merryman

So one of the movies that I actually vacillated and I did put it on the list, but I did sort of struggle with was Erin Brockovich. And the reason I struggled with that is if someone were like, oh, well, this is, you know, best courtroom movies. I'm like, well, then Erin Brockovich is in on it, because there's this sort of tag at the beginning where she loses a personal injury suit, but that's really just you know, it's set up.

00;16;35;08 - 00;16;55;07

Ashley Merryman

No one cares. There's no courtroom case. In fact, the actual subject of Erin Brockovich is we're going to settle this out of court. Can I convince you to sign a form? Not to go to court? But the whole movie is about the law and how long empowers people with rights. That it doesn't have to be just a lawyer who gets benefits from legal proceedings.

00;16;55;10 - 00;17;07;13

Ashley Merryman

And it's just fun to watch. And Julia Roberts is amazing, but it was sort of interesting. That was one of those moments. I was like, oh, what is a law movie if you have to be in a courtroom? No, you don't really have to be. I'd like you to be to be on the list.

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Movie Dialogue

Be didn't have to be.

00;17;08;26 - 00;17;29;08

Jonathan Hafetz

You know, such an important point because, you know, most people think of movies as courtroom dramas, but law sort of informs so many other aspects of society and so much of film when there's, you know, not a courtroom in most law doesn't actually take place in a courtroom. Right. And, you know, it's covered by John the movies on the podcast that have been not just courtroom movies, but movies outside courtroom.

00;17;29;08 - 00;17;42;27

Jonathan Hafetz

It can be like labor law, Norma Rae or Kramer versus Kramer or Marriage Story, which a little bit courtroom, but more about kind of divorce proceedings. So I think it's it's a great point you make about looking at outside, not just your traditional courtroom drama for like, what is a long movie.

00;17;42;29 - 00;18;04;01

Ashley Merryman

And in the also ran category especially is sort of twinned with Erin Brockovich. Was that Civil Action which stars John Travolta and is this true story? It's actually very similar in terms of the elevator pitch, right. It's about one lawyer who's trying to convince people that there's a class action suit on, toxic water, which is almost the same as Erin Brockovich.

00;18;04;02 - 00;18;33;09

Ashley Merryman

They're they're on different coasts. She's not a lawyer. She's a personal injury lawyer in all of the bad, stereotypical ways. In the beginning. And, you know, through the process of helping people is, you know, rethinking that law should be more than just making money off of people. So that was another one that I considered. But I thought that Erin Brockovich, because it's not about a lawyer and it is outside of a court, kind of gave you a new way to think about law movies, which is why that made it the list instead of a civil action.

00;18;33;16 - 00;18;43;20

Jonathan Hafetz

And civil action is great. I just looked at that. We covered a civil action on the podcast as well, and talk about a movie with that kind of dark message about the law. It's a civil law not being about truth, the search for truth.

00;18;43;24 - 00;18;58;04

Ashley Merryman

And not a happy ending. I mean, it's sort of a middle, a happy ending, I guess. Maybe, but it's certainly not that scene where, you know, everyone stands up and cheers. Yay! You got exonerated and all is well. You got the girl. Does not happen in that movie.

00;18;58;08 - 00;19;10;21

Jonathan Hafetz

I don't think anyone will be surprised that you had kill a mockingbird on the list. I mean, I feel like people think when they think of, like, righteous, upstanding lawyer. I mean, they think Gregory Peck To Kill a mockingbird. But was it an easy choice or an obvious choice?

00;19;10;23 - 00;19;24;04

Ashley Merryman

No, I always kind of. I did it several times, and I kept putting it back and in some ways I put it back for this sort of version of the reason I had a few good men on the list. You know, when we have that sort of cultural icon of who do you want to be as a lawyer?

00;19;24;04 - 00;19;32;28

Ashley Merryman

I think people think of him at the end of the trial, walking through, and everyone stands in respect. And I mean, like, sure, that's lawyer. I wouldn't be.

00;19;33;00 - 00;19;33;16

Movie Dialogue

You know, it's.

00;19;33;16 - 00;19;54;15

Ashley Merryman

A brilliant lawyer and someone who takes and does the right thing. But if you actually watch the movie, it's all told from the point of view of his young daughter. So there's very little lore in the movie. He's a lawyer, but they don't talk about his work except for one off the hand. Oh, you should have him do a will if they're proving to the kids themselves that he's this great guy.

00;19;54;19 - 00;19;57;29

Ashley Merryman

The way they do that is they say that he's the best shot in the county.

00;19;58;01 - 00;20;01;00

Movie Dialogue

And nothing to do with him being a lawyer. Right.

00;20;01;02 - 00;20;22;21

Ashley Merryman

So the only law in the film is really that big, huge. One sequence at the end and how much does that actually drive the plot and how much is that related to Scout growing up? It's unclear to me. And then there are, you know, a few detractors. You'd say, yeah, and then he looks like he may have cover up a murder.

00;20;22;21 - 00;20;25;02

Ashley Merryman

So that's a problem, right?

00;20;25;05 - 00;20;26;22

Movie Dialogue

So I just since there's a little role.

00;20;26;22 - 00;20;44;29

Ashley Merryman

Right. So yeah, I was struggling with having it on and I think I did because the Gregory Peck character does have so much respect. And and it is a brilliant sequence. But when you compare that to, say, Anatomy of Murder, where almost the whole movie takes place in a courtroom, then you start going, is that really a legal movie at all?

00;20;45;00 - 00;20;46;20

Ashley Merryman

I think it's a coming of age drama.

00;20;46;22 - 00;20;55;27

Jonathan Hafetz

Just interesting with To Kill a mockingbird, because I think most people think of it as kind of this classic long movie or a courtroom movie when it's, as you said, like, actually, if you look at the number of minutes in the courtroom, it's really not.

00;20;56;00 - 00;20;56;19

Ashley Merryman

Yeah. You just keep.

00;20;56;19 - 00;20;57;22

Movie Dialogue

Waiting.

00;20;57;24 - 00;21;09;16

Ashley Merryman

And that's why Kramer versus Kramer did not make the list, because it's a great movie. I rewatched it just in the past week to see how much of it held up, and there's only one moment where I was like, oh, that would never fly today.

00;21;09;18 - 00;21;10;27

Movie Dialogue

Just shuddered because.

00;21;10;27 - 00;21;12;02

Jonathan Hafetz

It's the glass throwing moment.

00;21;12;08 - 00;21;18;05

Ashley Merryman

No, it's when Dustin Hoffman kisses the total stranger or the employee Christmas party.

00;21;18;11 - 00;21;19;11

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah. That too. That's it.

00;21;19;11 - 00;21;20;28

Movie Dialogue

All. And they haven't he hasn't.

00;21;20;28 - 00;21;21;21

Ashley Merryman

Even hired yet.

00;21;21;21 - 00;21;26;18

Movie Dialogue

And I'm like, oh my God, he's going to be fired. Like, oh wait, this is fine. Yeah yeah.

00;21;26;20 - 00;21;42;07

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah right. Definitely dated there. I mean it's a snapshot of divorce law from that time, which is interesting, but that's a bit of a ouch moment. And as is when he throws the he has a fight with Meryl Streep, his ex-wife we separated from in the restaurant and he throws the glass against the wall, which apparently was not scripted.

00;21;42;07 - 00;21;44;03

Jonathan Hafetz

And I think she was like quite upset about it.

00;21;44;05 - 00;22;00;18

Ashley Merryman

So it didn't make the movie because I didn't think that the court was relevant to the plot. I think you could take the whole thing out and just have her say, I'm going to divorce you, and I'm going to take the kid and then say, no, I'm not going to take the kid, you know? And he could argue with her, but I just don't think it moves the plot any.

00;22;00;21 - 00;22;21;08

Ashley Merryman

The reason we think of it as a long movie is because the title is Kramer versus Kramer, not because of anything in it. And I mean, just to show you how little importance the law and the legal proceedings have, there's no indication in the movie when they actually get divorced. None. They're just separated. And then all of a sudden they're asked, divorce has happened at some point and now we're doing custody.

00;22;21;08 - 00;22;36;23

Ashley Merryman

So it's a great movie. I'm not knocking the movie, but in terms of what's the best law movie, I don't think it would be fair to put that against a movie like Judgment at Nuremberg or Witness for the prosecution, where the whole movie is about litigation of a case.

00;22;36;25 - 00;22;54;00

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah, I was really glad to see Judgment in Nuremberg on there. I think it holds up really well, and it's just so relevant to what's happening today. We kind of across the world where you have commissions of international crimes and mass atrocities and the idea about war crimes trials. I was really glad to see that one on the list.

00;22;54;02 - 00;23;18;02

Ashley Merryman

Yeah. And actually another one of the also rans that I would definitely recommend to your viewers is also a sort of descendant if Anatomy of All is a descendant, which is Judgment in Berlin, which was a film that stars Martin Sheen and Sean Penn and Sam Wanamaker, directed by Leo Penn. And what's interesting is I went back and so I did the movie when I was actually in film school, and I loved it.

00;23;18;02 - 00;23;33;10

Ashley Merryman

And I remembered it being a very tiny, you know, independent film. I have a hunch Martin Sheen may have paid for the production himself. I'm not sure that's possible. And I went back and I looked at some of them, you know, there were like two reviews. I think ten people have seen it, according to Rotten Tomatoes.

00;23;33;10 - 00;23;35;25

Movie Dialogue

So it's not like so.

00;23;35;25 - 00;24;08;13

Ashley Merryman

Martin Sheen plays a federal judge from new Jersey, Jewish who is hired, who is asked to temporarily put his federal judiciary in new Jersey on hold and go try and really set up a federal case in a military base in the middle of West Berlin in the 1970s, when West and East Berlin were still divided, and just after the US had signed an anti hijacking treaty, a man hijacks a plane into West Berlin so that he can defect.

00;24;08;17 - 00;24;28;04

Ashley Merryman

And when he does, the American military says, welcome to the West. And most of the people on the plane immediately defect with him. But he's a hijacker, so they have to actually litigated, and they're going to set up this military or American court on the military base. And so you get these fundamental questions of does the Constitution apply here?

00;24;28;07 - 00;25;02;03

Ashley Merryman

Is it a jury trial? Is the jury going to be a hand-picked group of military, or is it a group of people from the Berliner population? And I also highly recommend the book is written by Herbert J. The actual judge. And so I loved the fact that of any movies, to have a judge be having procedural decisions that change the outcome and talk about the judge's ethics, rather than the lawyers or anything else, and that the judge is specifically making these constitutional arguments about whether or not this is appropriate.

00;25;02;10 - 00;25;17;16

Ashley Merryman

And at the time, some of the reviewers were just thinking, well, that was just some jingoistic, bombastic, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, who wants to hear about arguing about the Constitution? But the movie came out before The West Wing, so if you are a West Wing fan, you will love.

00;25;17;18 - 00;25;17;26

Movie Dialogue

When.

00;25;17;26 - 00;25;23;00

Ashley Merryman

Martin Sheen starts arguing about what the Constitution and his ethics require.

00;25;23;02 - 00;25;24;13

Movie Dialogue

You will love it.

00;25;24;15 - 00;25;40;03

Jonathan Hafetz

I mean, it speaks to me. Having spent many years representing detainees at Guantanamo, arguing over the extraterritorial application of the Constitution, and does the Constitution apply beyond the formal U.S. borders, and how it speaks to me, and it's pretty rare for a film. So that's a must watch.

00;25;40;05 - 00;26;03;00

Ashley Merryman

Yeah. I mean, it is very small, but, you know, it's also sort of an interesting moment because the film was actually shot in East and West Berlin. So you really get to actually be back in that moment of time. It's it's fun. Yeah. And it's interesting sort of parallel then to Judge Nurnberg and he even talks about, you know, is his decisions going to be a replication of the failings of the judges who are on trial under Enberg.

00;26;03;01 - 00;26;05;23

Ashley Merryman

So he's very well aware of these issues. Yeah.

00;26;06;01 - 00;26;16;06

Jonathan Hafetz

So one maybe also ran I don't know I want to ask you about that's not on the list, but I think would be a good candidate in terms of exploring character through the courtroom. Is the. Oh.

00;26;16;08 - 00;26;37;10

Ashley Merryman

Yeah, I watched the verdict. I thought about the verdict. The American Bar Association has it on its list of best legal movies. Other people have to, and I watched it and went, no. And I mean, you got to love Paul Newman, who doesn't? Of course you love Paul Newman, but I think that's a really good example of a movie where the courtroom scenes, in terms of law, are kind of gibberish.

00;26;37;12 - 00;26;42;28

Ashley Merryman

You know, the big things to do and don't come out. None of that's actually remotely true.

00;26;43;00 - 00;26;43;23

Movie Dialogue

Okay.

00;26;43;25 - 00;27;02;12

Ashley Merryman

So you know, but I could have forgiven that, except for the fact that I just didn't see how any of this mattered. Right. In the greater scheme of things. Right. When I was talking about the stakes for Marshall and the stakes for witness of prosecution. Right. You know, he starts out he's an alcoholic lawyer sitting in a bar.

00;27;02;12 - 00;27;14;21

Ashley Merryman

And you know what he does for the rest of the movie? He's an alcoholic lawyer, sits in the bar. He doesn't sober up. He doesn't have this big. I'm gonna straighten up and fly right to save my client. Not at all. He drinks a little less.

00;27;14;23 - 00;27;16;16

Movie Dialogue

Still drink.

00;27;16;18 - 00;27;18;03

Ashley Merryman

He's not a good lawyer.

00;27;18;04 - 00;27;31;08

Jonathan Hafetz

They just take a stand there, right? He refuses the settlement offer, so they try to pay off the woman who they think the hospital killed through its negligence. And everyone think he's going to take any sort of tries, his chance at redemption. He's still a drinker, but.

00;27;31;11 - 00;27;40;28

Ashley Merryman

But again, I don't think that's redemption. I mean, a it's bad law for those of you who were listening, who are not lawyers, you have to take a settlement offer to the client. You can't just turn it down.

00;27;41;00 - 00;27;42;23

Movie Dialogue

On think right.

00;27;42;26 - 00;28;04;01

Ashley Merryman

So we're just going to set aside rules of civil procedure and talk about in the universe of it, it's still about his ego, right? I mean, he knows how his clients are in terms of the money they need. That's actually just one more shot of glory in a courtroom for me, I think it's more than they're actually trying to, right or wrong.

00;28;04;06 - 00;28;24;29

Ashley Merryman

And in some ways, and this is now decades before the Catholic Church's crisis with sexual assault responses. But, you know, the bishop actually, in some ways is a more thoughtful and interesting character because he's trying to figure out how to save his hospital and cut some losses. And what are the legal issues here. But he says these an extra, basically glorified extra.

00;28;25;01 - 00;28;28;22

Ashley Merryman

Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, Paul Newman, it's a great performance, but I don't think it's a good law.

00;28;28;22 - 00;28;32;02

Jonathan Hafetz

Maybe any other almost rans you want to mention.

00;28;32;04 - 00;28;56;28

Ashley Merryman

Sure. Well, so I put Lincoln Lawyer on the list and Michael Clayton did not make the list. And I put those mentally sort of his twins because they're more about the thriller aspect, you know, the lawyers and personal jeopardy because bad people are after them. They're probably the clients after him. But I felt that The Lincoln Lawyer used the law more as a plot and as the character.

00;28;56;28 - 00;29;24;28

Ashley Merryman

I mean, he's really wrestling with the right thing to do here. My ethical requirements are going to personally protect me and my friends. Maintaining ethics may actually physically result in harm. So the ethical dilemmas that he was having in the context of a thriller were driving the thriller plot. I think you could probably forget that Michael Clayton was a lawyer, you know, if he was just, you know, the fixer and you said, oh, well, he's from some military political background and didn't have a law degree.

00;29;25;00 - 00;29;33;04

Ashley Merryman

I don't really think that maybe change as much. I mean, it's a great movie, but that to me is more it's a really brilliant chase. I don't think it's a long movie.

00;29;33;07 - 00;29;52;16

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah. It's interesting we did that one on the podcast as well, and I think it's true about him being a fixer. I think the portrait, some of the other lawyers in the law firm culture in New York City, big law firm culture in the arts is interesting and well done. But I take your point. Well, going back to one of the movies that's on the list, which I mentioned at the outset, that maybe was a surprise to some, is miracle on 34th Street.

00;29;52;20 - 00;29;55;10

Jonathan Hafetz

What led you to put that movie on the list?

00;29;55;12 - 00;29;59;15

Ashley Merryman

Oh, that was the first movie on the list.

00;29;59;18 - 00;30;00;05

Movie Dialogue

As soon as.

00;30;00;05 - 00;30;25;06

Ashley Merryman

I got this assignment, I said, oh, miracle on 34th Street is going on the list. Some of that is just because it's my favorite movie, but I think it's also because it isn't appreciated as a movie. But unlike The Verdict or Kramer versus Kramer, the law proceedings drive the plot because Santa is, well, he sort of self commits, but now he's institutionalized and it's up to the lawyers to get him out.

00;30;25;09 - 00;30;39;09

Ashley Merryman

Even in the lead ups. You mentioned about big Law, the romantic lead is a lawyer, and he's always talking about how the partners are pressuring him to make a good impression and how he's working so hard. And, you know, it was a long time ago, but apparently it wasn't that much different in.

00;30;39;11 - 00;30;42;16

Movie Dialogue

Terms of work life balance back in the 30s and 40s.

00;30;42;18 - 00;31;06;03

Ashley Merryman

Yeah, but then the law, the judge and the court, they get to decide what is truth. And when you think back to what we were talking about with The Anatomy of Murder in Miracle on 34th Street, you also talk about commerce. The fact Macy's, the actual guy, Macy, is called to testify about whether or not his store Santa is Santa and the real Santa.

00;31;06;05 - 00;31;17;00

Ashley Merryman

And there's this wonderful montage where he's picturing, you know, the damage of sales this is going to have when Macy's in the biggest time of the year, and they go, there's no Santa. And then no one will want to buy Christmas.

00;31;17;00 - 00;31;18;21

Movie Dialogue

Presents because there's no Santa.

00;31;18;27 - 00;31;42;11

Ashley Merryman

Right? So you know, all the swirling images. But then it also comes down to perhaps it's, you know, manipulative. I'm sure it is. But at some point he starts believing in Santa and, you know, the kids responses. Right? So the impact of commerce in terms of testimony and what cases are even brought, this becomes notoriety because of Macy's and the visibility of the Santa Maria Macy's Christmas Parade.

00;31;42;14 - 00;32;11;29

Ashley Merryman

But at the same token, there's also this wonderful undercurrent of politics and how politics impacts the law. And that, most importantly, comes from the judge himself. And one of, I think, the best examples of how politics inform court and trials. The judge is asked before he worries about Chris, and then when specifically the judge is asked to rule if there is such a thing as Santa, and he goes back to his chambers and he's like, I'm going to go consult, you know, some law books.

00;32;11;29 - 00;32;13;05

Movie Dialogue

And big things.

00;32;13;07 - 00;32;19;03

Ashley Merryman

And it's his political boss telling him, you know, no one's going to vote for you if you don't vote for Santa.

00;32;19;05 - 00;32;38;27

Movie Dialogue

I don't care what you do with Old West Corpus, but if you go back in there and rule that there's no Santa Claus, you better start looking for that chicken farm right now. Why, we won't even be able to put you in the primaries with Charlie. Listen to reason. I'm a responsible judge. I've taken an oath. How can I seriously rule that there is a Santa Clause?

00;32;39;00 - 00;33;01;03

Movie Dialogue

All right, you go back and tell him that the New York State Supreme Court rules there's no Santa Clause. It's all over the papers. The kids read it, and they don't hang up their stockings. Now, what happens to all the toys that are supposed to be in those stockings? Nobody buys them. The toy manufacturers are going to like that, so they have to lay off a lot of their employees union employees.

00;33;01;05 - 00;33;23;02

Movie Dialogue

Now, you got to see I o in the a battle against you and they're going to what are you for it and they're going to say it with votes. Oh and the department stores are going to love you too. And the Christmas card makers and the candy companies. Oh, Henry, you're going to be an awful popular fella. And what about the Salvation Army?

00;33;23;04 - 00;33;43;00

Movie Dialogue

Why are they going to Santa Claus on every corner? And they take it a fortune. But you go ahead, Henry. You do it your way. You go on back in there and tell them that you rule there is no Santa Claus one. But if you do remember this, you can count on getting just two votes. You're on. And that district attorney is out there.

00;33;43;02 - 00;33;45;17

Movie Dialogue

The district attorney is a Republican.

00;33;45;19 - 00;34;02;05

Ashley Merryman

So in that clip, he's talking about, you know, how the unions are going to be impacted by the result, how, you know, every parent's going to be upset with him because they've ruined their kids Christmas and the judge himself has grandchildren who won't hug him because he's crying.

00;34;02;05 - 00;34;06;24

Movie Dialogue

Santa. And the little girl goes and walks away. Right.

00;34;06;26 - 00;34;13;27

Ashley Merryman

And the payoff when he's talking to the political boss in the court is the best, because he comes back and says, having consulted.

00;34;13;27 - 00;34;16;08

Movie Dialogue

The highest legal authority.

00;34;16;10 - 00;34;43;28

Movie Dialogue

Before making a ruling, this court has consulted the highest authority available. The question of Santa Claus seems to be largely a matter of opinion. Many people firmly believe in him, others do not. The tradition of American justice demands a broad and unprejudiced view of such a controversial matter. This court, therefore, intends to keep an open mind, which are evidence on either side.

00;34;44;00 - 00;34;45;15

Movie Dialogue

He's crazy to.

00;34;45;18 - 00;34;50;10

Ashley Merryman

Well, the highest legal authority in New York is apparently the political guy who gets you elected.

00;34;50;13 - 00;34;55;05

Movie Dialogue

When which I love this so much.

00;34;55;07 - 00;35;13;21

Jonathan Hafetz

It demands a broad and unprejudiced view of this controversial matter. Right? That's the judge. He's going to keep an open mind. And then the next scene is the defense counsel. Fred Gailey, played by John Paley, calls the prosecutor's son, who testifies that his daddy told him that there was a Santa Claus and he wouldn't lie.

00;35;13;25 - 00;35;17;07

Movie Dialogue

And so which is so awesome.

00;35;17;09 - 00;35;21;19

Ashley Merryman

I mean, it does. It shows about parenting and the expression.

00;35;21;19 - 00;35;27;27

Movie Dialogue

On his face when his son is saying, daddy wouldn't lie. And it's like, well, of course I would lie any.

00;35;27;29 - 00;35;44;13

Ashley Merryman

I think in terms of lawyer credibility. And then what actually saves Santa is the federal regulation in terms of who is the legal authority in terms of getting mail. And then it's illegal to misdirect mail in the post office and the letter mailed to Santa.

00;35;44;19 - 00;35;46;00

Movie Dialogue

So the United States.

00;35;46;00 - 00;35;53;07

Ashley Merryman

Government has recognized Santa as Santa. And under the federal Supremacy Clause, that means New York must also agree.

00;35;53;09 - 00;35;54;25

Movie Dialogue

That's just fantastic.

00;35;55;02 - 00;36;14;22

Jonathan Hafetz

The great ending. I like the little kind of play to you because the defense says whether Santa exists or not, we don't know. It doesn't answer real question. It's almost like it's non justiciable. But then the prosecution says, okay, fine, but many people might claim they're Santa. How can you prove to Kris Kringle and question right, how can you prove your Santa?

00;36;14;22 - 00;36;31;27

Jonathan Hafetz

And the defense is sort of looks like the case is over and then the post office, right. The workers in the post office who seem eager to get rid of this backlog of letters to Santa, they've like accumulated where they've been sacked. They say, oh, they read about the case in the paper. They say, let's have them delivered to Kris Kringle.

00;36;32;01 - 00;36;44;12

Jonathan Hafetz

And so, like you said, is it you know, if the US Post Office is going to deliver the letters to Kringle thinks he's Santa Claus? Well, as a matter of law and just a matter of fact, you know who's going to argue with you as post office. And so he is Santa, and they win the case.

00;36;44;14 - 00;37;01;29

Ashley Merryman

Well, I think it's even more I think it's actually on a stronger legal footing than that. I mean, the first part is actually adjudicating is there a Santa or not? Right. That's where the political boss comes in. And then it's okay. Now that we've said there is a Santa, and now we have to prove that this is the Santa.

00;37;02;07 - 00;37;05;25

Ashley Merryman

And that's then again, brilliant lawyering.

00;37;05;27 - 00;37;26;18

Movie Dialogue

I'm only aware of my client's opinions. In fact, that's the entire case against him. All these complicated tests and reports boil down to this. Mr. Kringle is not sane because he believes himself to be Santa Claus. An entirely logical and reasonable assumption. I'm afraid it would be if the clerk here or Mr. Morrow or I believe that we were Santa Claus.

00;37;26;20 - 00;37;48;19

Movie Dialogue

Anyone who thinks he's Santa Claus is not sane. Not necessarily. You believe yourself to be Judge Harper, yet no one questioned your sanity because you aren't Judge Harper. I know all about myself, young man. Mr. Kringle is the subject of this hearing. Yes, Your Honor, and if he is the person he believes himself to be, just as you are, then he's just as sane.

00;37;48;21 - 00;37;56;27

Movie Dialogue

Granted, but he isn't. Oh, but he is, your Honor. Is what I intend to prove. That Mr. Kringle is Santa Claus.

00;37;56;29 - 00;38;00;21

Movie Dialogue

He's crazy to be.

00;38;00;24 - 00;38;19;22

Ashley Merryman

Granted, it was an accident, but it works. If the federal government recognizes someone as a person and it is illegal to represent someone who is not that person, you know, they have to be that person. The federal supremacy clause. New York can't say he's not Santa. If the United States government has already said it.

00;38;19;25 - 00;38;46;11

Movie Dialogue

Your honor, every one of these letters is addressed to Santa Claus. The post office is delivered them. Therefore, the Post Office Department, a branch of the federal government, recognizes this man, Kris Kringle, to be the one and only Santa Claus. Since the United States government declares this man to be Santa Claus, this court, well, not disputed. He's dismissed.

00;38;46;14 - 00;39;22;08

Ashley Merryman

So that, to me, is just such a smart twist on the law. I love America for many reasons, but what's interesting is sort of compared to My Cousin Vinny played as a farce, miracle on 34th Street could be a farce. And it's played straight. There's one little weird part with the psychologist and his eyebrows twisting and all that, but mostly it's it's played straight, and I think that that's actually one of the things that makes it so special, because you don't expect a movie about is there or is there not Santa to be about documentary evidentiary rules instead?

00;39;22;10 - 00;39;43;08

Ashley Merryman

Instead, it's supposed to be about his magic. You know, if we were pitching this to Hollywood producers and we said, and there's a courtroom movie about whether or not he's Santa, then you know, the expected thing would be and then Santa is going to just come up with, like, a magic thing, and all of a sudden the sleigh is going to come in through the courtroom and the whole place will be lighting with colors and bells, and there'll be this demonstration of Santa's magic.

00;39;43;13 - 00;39;46;21

Ashley Merryman

And instead it rests on an evidentiary rule.

00;39;46;26 - 00;40;07;28

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah, I think it's a great point. They really do. Kind of ground is almost fantastic. No question of proving Santa Claus or someone isn't Santa Claus in this kind of almost sort of realistic legal civil commitment proceeding. It does a remarkable job. And I certainly had not thought of miracle on 34th Street as a movie until you kind of got me to think about it that way.

00;40;07;28 - 00;40;32;08

Jonathan Hafetz

But that was the movie. The legal realism, which you alluded to before in terms of the commercial influences on the court, the political influences need like human influences, like everyone knows that this case is. Yeah, whether he's crazy or not, there is no Santa. You can't prove there's a Santa. But everyone is kind of supports this legal fiction because of all of the surrounding pressures.

00;40;32;08 - 00;40;41;13

Jonathan Hafetz

Right. Which and, you know, courts kind of do that. There's sort of like, well, what's the, you know, what is the court going to do? It's going to find the law. I know there's all kinds of external forces around.

00;40;41;13 - 00;41;02;28

Ashley Merryman

Courts and all of it's impacting it. Right? The media coverage is the thing that the Post Office sees, which makes them send the letters. Right. So all of these things are interplay thing and one thing which I think is real true. There are lots of cases that we haven't ever heard about. And it's, you know, two people, you know, lawyer in your honor signed this, and it's just pretty pro forma.

00;41;02;28 - 00;41;27;17

Ashley Merryman

But if you're thinking about a high pressure celebrity or just any more high visibility case trying it in the media, how does the media impact it? How does the fact that the judge or the D.A. that they're running for reelection impact their choice of the case, or how they're going to litigate it? How does the defense lawyers being told you need to drop this or it's bad for your career?

00;41;27;20 - 00;41;38;24

Ashley Merryman

So all of the pieces and they do in very real ways, impact litigation. And that's what I think makes this actually a great law movie instead of just the great big.

00;41;38;27 - 00;41;56;00

Jonathan Hafetz

I totally agree. And it's funny, it's a holiday. You think of it as a holiday movie too now, but that was an act that the studio wanted to release. It may because that's when people would go see it, I guess because it was very hot. That and but it's sort of an odd thing that it's now this holiday Christmas movie, but it was kind of released in the springtime.

00;41;56;03 - 00;42;23;10

Ashley Merryman

They didn't have a holiday film market, both in movies and music the way that we do today. So not a courtroom movie, but Meet Me in Saint Louis has Have Yourself a merry Little Christmas. And, you know, people sang it a little bit and then it kind of disappeared. And it wasn't until a remake after the war when it was sort of popularized, and those things ended up sort of catalyzing more of a Christmas season.

00;42;23;17 - 00;42;38;22

Ashley Merryman

So now we have Christmas movies. You know, the Santa movie's always going to come out a little bit over Thanksgiving, but when this movie came out, there just wasn't that sort of substantive pegging of types of movies with content and the type of year just didn't happen yet.

00;42;38;24 - 00;42;59;02

Jonathan Hafetz

Also, perhaps the all time holiday movie or one of them, It's a Wonderful Life, failed at the box office. Didn't do well that it was, I guess whatever it was, the license expired. It just started to run and it picked up steam. And now it's become this holiday movie. So it's it's really interesting to kind of look historically at how holiday movies became a thing and things we think of as holiday movies weren't originally intended that way.

00;42;59;05 - 00;43;15;03

Ashley Merryman

And it's actually another example of the what we think of the movie and what you actually see in the movie. It's a really long time before Clarence the Angel shows up. It's a really long time before the world rewinds and the whole thing happens and he's not there. And that we think it's really the last.

00;43;15;03 - 00;43;17;12

Movie Dialogue

Act is what we think the whole movie is.

00;43;17;18 - 00;43;23;15

Ashley Merryman

So when you're watching what's almost like three hours, you're going, where does Clarence get here? I thought this was a Christmas movie.

00;43;23;20 - 00;43;24;29

Movie Dialogue

It's not.

00;43;25;01 - 00;43;26;02

Ashley Merryman

Life crisis.

00;43;26;04 - 00;43;28;07

Movie Dialogue

It's not a Christmas movie.

00;43;28;09 - 00;43;47;04

Ashley Merryman

I have a silly other purely personal, but fun fact, reason that I love miracle, which is that, you know, obviously it's on 34th Street. And when I went to college, the main USC film school campus was actually located on 34th Street in LA. And I used to always joke that it was a miracle on 34th Street that I was at.

00;43;47;04 - 00;43;48;10

Movie Dialogue

School.

00;43;48;12 - 00;44;01;23

Jonathan Hafetz

At 34th Street. I mean, it's a great on location movie for New York. I mean, images of the Thanksgiving Day parade, which is when the Christmas season starts as a commercial matter, right? In New York circa 1947. So lots of interesting things in this movie, but such.

00;44;01;23 - 00;44;25;28

Ashley Merryman

A wonderful movie. And I mean, Natalie Wood as the only little girl in New York who doesn't believe in Santa, right? And she's just brilliant and almost chilling in the way she says. Nope. And to see her again come alive in terms of her belief and the idea that her friend, there's a court case about her friend, and how does that change how she sees the world.

00;44;26;00 - 00;44;31;26

Ashley Merryman

And it's a movie about Santa, so she ends up being a believer, but you could easily see it going the other way.

00;44;31;28 - 00;44;32;22

Movie Dialogue

Right?

00;44;32;24 - 00;44;43;18

Ashley Merryman

And she even says, oh no, he was just a nice man with whiskers and a cane. And then that's where the magic is. That little last minute. But the rest of the movie, there's no magic.

00;44;43;21 - 00;44;58;19

Jonathan Hafetz

So no. Amazing. I was struck, you know, Natalie, what was I mean, she started obviously as a child actress and actor and was just remarkably good in this and in many other things are certainly like kind of tragic. I was just reading more about her, you know, and what happened to her.

00;44;58;22 - 00;45;19;16

Ashley Merryman

The film honors her every time it's done. And as far as I can tell, my belief there is no such thing as the remake. It's one of those movies that if you know, you're just sort of surfing through channels, if I see it, I have to stop. And usually, invariably, I catch it right when the little Dutch were orphaned is talking to Santa.

00;45;19;19 - 00;45;21;28

Ashley Merryman

And then I burst into tears.

00;45;22;01 - 00;45;23;14

Movie Dialogue

Or but that's not.

00;45;23;14 - 00;45;33;28

Ashley Merryman

The lore part. But you know, they can motion part. And again, compared to a lot of other movies we think of as long movies they get to court as later later than they do in controversy.

00;45;34;00 - 00;45;41;18

Jonathan Hafetz

So just coming back to the list for a second, are there other movies on the list that made you think differently, even about miracle on 34th Street?

00;45;41;20 - 00;46;04;28

Ashley Merryman

Yeah, actually Inherit the Wind. I wouldn't to put those two together and I was going to have it on the list. I thought it was a wonderful film. But now Minow, who's a contributing editor at Roger ABC.com, we were talking about those two, and she put those two together because she said that both of them, the core issue that's being dealt with in the film and also being dealt with in court, is what do we believe, what do we know?

00;46;05;05 - 00;46;27;22

Ashley Merryman

And that the court process is actually the arbiter of what we believe and what we know and what we can even discuss? And I was just sort of blown away and thinking about that. Some miracle is the lighter comedy version of that, but it's still almost the opposite of anatomy and for murder, right? Anatomy of a murder is about learning that courts don't really give you truth and inherit the Wind.

00;46;27;22 - 00;46;56;10

Ashley Merryman

And Miracle on 34th Street are about how court actually can design what the society believes and accepts. And putting my lawyer hat on. You know, it's interesting, right? The researchers who've looked at things like the acceptance of gay marriage before or after the Supreme Court opined on it. So I do think that there are, you know, really interesting ways that courts do challenge us to think about what do we accept as society as a legitimate point of view information.

00;46;56;13 - 00;47;22;20

Ashley Merryman

And I think both of those movies really tackle that head on. So it was kind of a fascinating twin of them. And inherit is obviously it's a highly stylized movie. It's not very worried about evidence, rules. You know, from the very get go when you're watching it that that's what you're doing. They're using the play format and the courtroom format as that venue for arguing about ideas, as opposed to trying to show the Veritasium court.

00;47;22;23 - 00;47;40;08

Jonathan Hafetz

That connection is so interesting between the two, and to think about the courts kind of role in that and their role in defining, constructing belief and I mean, a miracle. I'm seeing sort of everyone's investment, commercial, political, familial in the notion of Santa Claus kind of create this power that the court ultimately kind of has to accept, right?

00;47;40;08 - 00;47;54;19

Jonathan Hafetz

The judges kind of push against the saying, I'm kind of the rational, reasonable. I, I, I can't find this. I have to kind of follow the law for the fact there's no Santa Claus, but there are all of these sort of forces come together, and the judge is kind of confronted with, you won't win a second term.

00;47;54;25 - 00;48;01;15

Ashley Merryman

And again, even his granddaughter and then his own wife say, well, you're trying, Santa, I have shame on you.

00;48;01;17 - 00;48;02;04

Movie Dialogue

Right.

00;48;02;07 - 00;48;24;15

Ashley Merryman

So yeah, there's no where he's getting around this. And the idea that he wants to be this reasonable, thoughtful jurist flies out the window. And the idea that he's going to be reasonable is actually damaging. And then going back to Nell's insight in Inherit the Wind there. You know, Henry Morgan is the judge, but he's mostly just, you know, tapping the gavel.

00;48;24;15 - 00;48;42;04

Ashley Merryman

It's fun to see him that young because I only my reference of him is a mash, you know. But they're you know, the two leads, Frederick Marsh and Spencer Tracy and also Gene Kelly is sort of the wiser reporter condemned to are doing exactly the same thing, you know, how are the screaming mobs going to change this proceeding?

00;48;42;10 - 00;48;59;05

Ashley Merryman

How is the reporting going to change this proceeding, even to the point where, you know, they're grandstanding and grabbing mikes during the actual trial marches? So in some ways that the larger movements of the society are just sort of pushing themselves into court whether or not we want them there. And even if a judge says, no, I'm not going to let that happen.

00;48;59;12 - 00;49;31;03

Ashley Merryman

And actually, I think the almost the reverse is true. Perhaps with the trial of Chicago seven, which is also on my list, because there it's litigating the arguments that are happening inside. Right? So it's more assertively choosing what those are, as opposed to them being reluctantly forced into them. But I think that's also another great movie in that very much conversation of what is real and what should we be talking about, and how does the law and legal proceedings reflect our society's values?

00;49;31;06 - 00;49;48;22

Ashley Merryman

Maybe it's right. Maybe it's supposed to be the dispassionate, blind justice who should be immune from the mob. On the other hand, if you don't understand what the mob is saying, then maybe you don't understand the facts of the case that they're being presented to you. And the context which I think you know. Chicago seven nails every time Bobby.

00;49;48;22 - 00;49;49;26

Movie Dialogue

Seale was.

00;49;49;26 - 00;49;54;23

Ashley Merryman

Just, you know, being crushed in your heart is breaking win for the Black Panthers.

00;49;54;25 - 00;50;13;12

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah. That was Abbie Hoffman, right. Central character in the film in The Trial of Chicago seven. That was his strategy. And he was a master at bringing the outside into the courtroom. That's another one I cover in the podcast in the guest was, Jerry Lefcourt, who represented Abbie Hoffman, was involved in the trial, was kind of talking about the kind of genius that he had to recognize.

00;50;13;12 - 00;50;31;11

Jonathan Hafetz

You got your courtroom proceeding. But this isn't about the law. This is a political trial. And for those kind of trials, especially trials that are political in nature and political ramifications, it's important they're going to bring in what's outside the courts to aren't walled off from what's happening might be different in the, you know, a dry contract dispute or something else which doesn't kind of have that dimension.

00;50;31;11 - 00;50;36;10

Jonathan Hafetz

But in these movies, as you mentioned, I think it's it's really important to the films, really do a good job of that.

00;50;36;13 - 00;50;58;10

Ashley Merryman

On the basis of sex is another one that wasn't on the list, but came very close. But that is an expressed moment was that she's you know, they're saying, you know, the courts aren't going to rule in favor of abolishing sex discrimination on the books because it's too much of a societal change. And her response and the epiphany is, no, actually, society has changed since the law has not caught up yet.

00;50;58;12 - 00;51;04;23

Ashley Merryman

And that becomes the turning point in the movies drama. But in terms of the actual approach for the law.

00;51;04;25 - 00;51;08;06

Jonathan Hafetz

Any fun facts you discovered in compiling this list?

00;51;08;09 - 00;51;23;25

Ashley Merryman

Well, one is sort of dark, but I was sort of surprised how many of the best movies I expected them to deal with murder, but most of them actually dealt with rape, which I was really surprised for, especially when we were talking about historic movies in the 1940s and 60s, and I thought these were issues that weren't discussed.

00;51;24;01 - 00;51;49;03

Ashley Merryman

So anatomy of a murder, there's a rape, and then there's a murder witness for prosecution. We're not really sure what's going on, but actually Malina Dietrich's character, there's suggestion that there's a gang rape. He just sort of prevents it in a little bit. So I was surprised the sexual violence was such an issue early on. I had originally thought about including the accused on the list, and thought that I remember when the accused came out, and that was what people talked about.

00;51;49;03 - 00;52;10;16

Ashley Merryman

This was a movie about the unmentionable subject. So it was kind of stunning to actually see these movies that were predating the accused by decades, that were also tackling in interesting ways. I think the accused in Jodie Foster's performance absolutely is just as powerful today as it was when the movie came out, but it was interesting culturally to see some of the things that didn't, didn't make it in that.

00;52;10;16 - 00;52;28;14

Ashley Merryman

And so my other just random fun fact going back to sort of where we started and what is a law film? Aaron Sorkin was the bane of my existence, right? If you had been the short law movie, but again, the reason that was in there, as much as for the drama of the characters as it is the plot trial of the Chicago seven that was easy.

00;52;28;18 - 00;52;34;16

Ashley Merryman

The one that was really hard. The Social Network, the whole movie is a deposition. The whole.

00;52;34;18 - 00;52;36;07

Movie Dialogue

Movie is.

00;52;36;10 - 00;52;44;07

Ashley Merryman

Sitting down and reporting to lawyers what happened and how this company began, how it fell apart. But I don't think anybody thinks of it as.

00;52;44;07 - 00;52;46;07

Movie Dialogue

Loving.

00;52;46;09 - 00;52;47;17

Jonathan Hafetz

Nobody, but no reason not to.

00;52;47;23 - 00;52;56;10

Ashley Merryman

Write. So that was it was at that point that I hit that sort of existential crisis of what is a law movie after all? I don't know anymore. The Social Network kind of broke.

00;52;56;10 - 00;52;59;10

Movie Dialogue

Me for a little bit, and didn't make.

00;52;59;10 - 00;53;13;17

Ashley Merryman

It in the article, but it was interesting to think about, you know what other movies don't even we don't even think of as a law movie, but actually have it as an intrinsic element to the plot and the mechanism of the storytelling.

00;53;13;19 - 00;53;20;17

Jonathan Hafetz

You had to in by Stanley Kramer, right. Because he did Judgment in Nuremberg and Inherit the Wind. But those where law movie on their sleeve.

00;53;20;20 - 00;53;43;03

Ashley Merryman

Yeah, I did think about that in terms of the repeats. You know, Spencer Tracy's on my list a bunch of times. Jimmy Stewart was either on the list or had movies. It didn't make the list. Aaron Sorkin, a bunch of movies, Stanley Kramer, a bunch of movies. So I was kind of surprised, actually, on that. But then I decided, you know, that it's just creative people who are interested in movies about ideas.

00;53;43;10 - 00;54;05;04

Ashley Merryman

And there's no, as I mentioned, no, I talked about that. You know, the law itself is a great setting for conflict, you know, because drama is conflict. And while litigation is inherently got, it has some conflict. So I think the combination of those things and being interested in material that's thoughtful about society, thoughtful about how conflict impacts and reveals character and character.

00;54;05;04 - 00;54;18;06

Ashley Merryman

I mean, you know, a person who's a character in character in terms of ethics and the choices that we make. So I think the people who are excited and interested by that material, once they see that, then they probably are looking for other things.

00;54;18;08 - 00;54;37;17

Jonathan Hafetz

And also just historically, kind of you alluded to this before, just looking at, you know, your films dating from the 40s, I think going back through 2000, looking at how the law has changed, dealing with subjects and its composition, you know, you have 12 angry men, what that looks like, what the jury looks like, although it's diverse in viewpoint, you know, you have no women on the jury.

00;54;37;21 - 00;54;56;08

Jonathan Hafetz

You have anatomy of a murder, which interestingly, does kind of break down, I think, a little bit in talking about rape, but it's interesting to see how this kind of very awkward conversation between the judge and the defense attorney and the prosecutor all, man, and just how they kind of dance around it. But it's kind of interesting historically, too, to look at how the law has changed and lawyers have changed.

00;54;56;11 - 00;55;23;27

Ashley Merryman

But it's also creepy and terrifying how much it hasn't. The legal issues relating to Inherit the Wind are about what can be taught in schools, and book burning, and the power of a charismatic, authoritarian leader and the power of relitigating whether or not religion should be in schools. I mean, these are issues that we're dealing with today. When I watched Kramer, I thought Kramer was going to be more archaic because, well, we're just so much, you know, more embracing of alternative family structures.

00;55;23;29 - 00;55;27;05

Ashley Merryman

And then I watched and I was like, no, actually, most of its.

00;55;27;05 - 00;55;28;02

Movie Dialogue

Time not.

00;55;28;04 - 00;55;57;15

Ashley Merryman

You're pretty well, in terms of dealing with sexual stereotypes, people who are expected to be a particular type of character. So I was actually surprised. And 12 Angry Men is front and center about how socioeconomic and racial bias impact our ability to see something and understand it. So I was kind of amazed, actually, in some ways that not just the law, but the broader issues that they were tackling were actually just as relevant today as they were when they were made.

00;55;57;18 - 00;56;16;08

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah, it's a great I mean, you get by some of the trappings and the personnel, they've changed. They've been updated in terms of demographics. Right. And some of the awkward scenes referred to earlier, you know, some of the things that just wouldn't I just seemed kind of not right for today. But if you get to some underlying issues of religion and gender, they're surprisingly relevant and how they speak to people in 2024.

00;56;16;14 - 00;56;30;14

Ashley Merryman

Yeah, I think you have to kind of look at whether it's an inappropriate language or something like that. You know, that's just sort of that window to in that it's time to remind you I have a new favorite thing that I'm always watching movies where people are talking on phones with cords.

00;56;30;16 - 00;56;36;17

Movie Dialogue

Like, oh, I had a phone with the cordless. That's so cool. There's a phone cord over many years to pay for that.

00;56;36;17 - 00;56;51;02

Jonathan Hafetz

So what stands out to me is the movies. They're in the transition period that have the 300 pound car. So you're like, those are like, oh, right. They had like car phones or like gigantic cell phones. And those are like sort of transition ones that seem to me like to stick out like a sore thumb. Yeah.

00;56;51;02 - 00;56;53;24

Ashley Merryman

The portable ones that way. 2 pounds pounds.

00;56;53;26 - 00;56;54;14

Movie Dialogue

Yeah.

00;56;54;19 - 00;57;10;09

Ashley Merryman

It's great. So I think you just have to sort of look past those little moments of historical anachronisms and say, well, that seems weird to us now, but that's just way it was then. And not let that distract you from those bigger issues, which again, I think are stunningly relevant today.

00;57;10;11 - 00;57;22;03

Jonathan Hafetz

Ashley, I want to thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It's been great to talk to you about your list, which is terrific. And just to dive in on miracle on 34th Street, a great and underappreciated law movie.

00;57;22;05 - 00;57;25;01

Ashley Merryman

It's not for Chris, not just for Christmas anymore.

00;57;25;04 - 00;57;25;17

Jonathan Hafetz

Thanks so.

00;57;25;17 - 00;57;28;24

Ashley Merryman

Much. Thank you so much for having me. It was last.

00;57;28;27 - 00;57;55;08

Jonathan Hafetz

Hello again. I hope you're enjoying law on film. I wanted to let you know about an exciting new feature that will make it easier for listeners to engage with the podcast. If you have any questions about an episode you've listened to, whether about the law, the movie, or both, please go ahead and send them to me at the end of each episode, I'll respond to your questions about previous episodes during our new Q&A segment, so go ahead and send any questions or comments about the films we've covered by email.

00;57;55;11 - 00;58;09;20

Jonathan Hafetz

Jonathan Heifetz at gmail.com. That's Jonathan hey Fitz, all one word at gmail.com. Or just DM me on Twitter or X. Thanks again for listening. And if you like Law on Film podcast, please make sure to rate all reviews.