Jonathan Hafetz

Hi, I'm Jonathan Hafetz, and welcome to Law on Film, a podcast that looks at law through film and film through law. In this episode, we dive into Francis Ford Coppola's The Godfather from 1972. Widely regarded as one of the greatest films of all time. Based on Mario Puzo's bestselling 1969 novel, The Godfather depicts the rise and legacy of the Corleone family, a fictional and Italian-American organized crime family led by Vito Corleone, and the transformation of his son Michael from a reluctant outsider to a ruthless mafia boss.

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Jonathan Hafetz

The film, which features an ensemble cast of American film icons including Marlon Brando, Al Pacino, James Caan, Robert Duvall, Diane Keaton, Talia Shire, and John Cazale, explores themes of family, power, and the American dream. It also provides a window into the relationship between law and culture, while offering complex perspectives on the meaning of justice. Joining me to talk about The Godfather is Stephen Ko.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Steve is associate professor of law and the author Gordon Butler, Scholar in international law at Boston University School of Law. He teaches and writes in areas of criminal law, constitutional law, and international law. Stephen's research has appeared or is forthcoming in leading journals, including New York University Law Review, Duke Law Journal Online, Cornell Law Review, Washington University Law Review, and Boston University Law Review.

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Jonathan Hafetz

He's a contributor to Just Security and Lawfare Law blogs, and is a fellow at the center for Cultural Sociology at Yale University. Steve also has significant litigation experience, both in the United States and internationally. Having worked as a trial attorney in the Criminal Division of the U.S. Department of Justice in Washington, DC, counsel to the Deputy Assistant Attorney General and Counselor for International Affairs, and in The Hague as a visiting professional at the International Criminal Court, and before that as an Associate Legal Officer at the UN International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Steve's current research focuses on the field of cultural sociology, where he brings an interdisciplinary lens to law and culture, including the relationship between formal, corrupt legal mechanisms and notions of justice. Themes. At the heart of the celebrated film, The Godfather. Steve, welcome to law and film. Great to have you on the podcast.

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Steve Koh

Thanks so much for having me, Jonathan. This is so fun and for the listeners to know, the reason why this came about is because you gave me a car ride home from this conference at pace, and you told me about the podcast and I immediately said, I want to be on it and I want to do The Godfather.

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Steve Koh

And I think at first you're a little surprised because it's not as explicitly legal as, you know, some of these other films, but I've always just loved the film. I've always just loved the film, and there's so much there, and I knew that it would resonate so much with just this basic dichotomy between law and justice. You can lean into that.

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Jonathan Hafetz

So the film opens up. It's during Vito Corleone, his daughter's wedding. He's in a room with a few of his associates, shall we say. And suddenly it comes in the in bonus era.

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I believe in America. America hasn't made my fortune. And I raised my daughter in the American fashion. I gave it freedom. But I popped her name up with desire for family. She found a boyfriend. And in Italian. She went to the movies with him. She stayed out late. I didn't this two months ago. He took her for a drive with another boyfriend.

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They made her bring whiskey, and then they tried to take advantage of her. If assistant, she kept down. So they beat her like an arm. When I went to the hospital, that nose was broken. Her job was to shut it all together. My wife, she couldn't even breathe because of the pain, but I went. Why did I wait?

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It wasn't like with my life. Beautiful. Now she will never be beautiful again. I. I went to the police like a good American. These are the boys that were brought to trial. A judge sentenced them to three years in prison. Suspended the sentence. Suspended the sentence. They went three that way. They. I stood in the courtroom like a fool.

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And those two bastard. These married me. Then I said to my wife for justice, we must go to Don Corleone in order to them as they please. I didn't come to me first. What do you want? Tell me anything. But what about. What is the.

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That I cannot do. I asked if you have anything. You ask. And I mean to them many years. But this is the first time you ever came to counsel firm. I can't remember the last time they invited me to the house for a cup of coffee. Even though my wife was godmother to your only child. Because be frank and number one, in my friendship and love.

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And we're afraid to be my dad. I didn't want to get into trouble. I was the found allies in the Monica. I have a good trade. Made a good living. Please protect the General Court of Law and the affirmative. But, I come to me to say I'm coming around and giving just to then ask respect. You know, no answer.

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And I think that the common godfather said, you come into my house on the day my daughters commit murder and ask me, mother, mother, I ask you for justice. That is not just God is going to love is suffering. She suffers. I might just I paid, but I'm a sinner. Sir, what have I ever done to make you treat me?

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Service respectfully with company and friendship. And the scum of the world. Your daughter would be suffering this very day. And that by chance, an honest man like yourself would make enemies that would become my enemies. And then there was fear. You.

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Be my friend, Godfather. Good. Someday. And that they may never come out. Come on. You the homeless. But, I'm glad they accept this. Justice is a gift of my God as well. And then that's right. You know, just the woman I want reliable people, people that I. Can we go the way we will not murder in spite of the undertaker.

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Some.

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Jonathan Hafetz

So how does this bonus era and the scene between him and, The Godfather, Vito Corleone, played by Marlon Brando, set up the opposition between American law and true justice.

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Steve Koh

Yeah. So I think the opening monologue is in some ways the perfect summation of the entire film. It sets up two central issues. The first one is, yes, the tension between formal legal mechanisms and a deeper notion of justice. And the second one is ambivalence about America. So it seems to me that the legal system is deeply intertwined with Americanness throughout the entire film.

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Steve Koh

And one of the things we see in the opening monologue is bonus. Sara's opening sentence is, I believe in America. It sounds like almost a profession of faith. And as a cultural sociologist, one of the things that we talk about a lot is we think about what is culture. Every culture has binaries of opposition, of values between what Durkheim called the sacred and profane.

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Steve Koh

So at the beginning of this monologue bonus set for the bonus era, America is sacred. I believe in America. America gave me my fortune. His daughter is also sacred. The way he realizes over the course of the attempted rape of his daughter, and then the battery, and then the suspended sentence, is that the seemingly sacred American country, the seemingly sacred American legal system, slowly becomes polluted and then becomes profane.

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Steve Koh

And that's why the final line of that monologue is therefore for justice. I must go to Don Corleone. In other words, as the notion of America and Americanness and American law becomes polluted and profane, Don Corleone becomes the sacred source of justice, and therefore it's the perfect summation of of the entire film.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah, it's so interesting. And during the course of the conversation. Marlon Brando, right. The Marlon Brando character, Don Corleone says, you never came to me before. Right. Right. Now, you you mean you come on the on the wedding, right? Like, you know, he had never sought out his assistants before, but now he's doing it.

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Steve Koh

Yeah, that's exactly right. And one of the things that I think this also sets up beautifully, another tension sets up beautifully is what is the contrast between a formal legal system and the way we might talk about it in law school, and the kind of more traditional notions of, of law or justice that may exist in societies before all of the bells and whistles of a modern justice system.

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Steve Koh

So this is something that's not really obvious to us most of the time when when we're just sitting in American law school, but just as traditionally did not look like separation of powers, federalism. You know, we have finders of fact. We have judges making determinations of law. Judge, jury and executioner was all in the same person. And so there's a kind of dichotomy here between going towards a modern legal system that may be open to corruption and the traditional notion of justice that is tied up with these, what we might think of as more pre-modern values of loyalty, friendship, paying back favors.

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Steve Koh

So when I start Corleone asking for in that opening scene, he's not asking for someone to file a formal motion or he's not asking for, you know, are you represented by an attorney? Maybe we can get an attorney for you if you're indigent. These sorts of questions, he's saying, are you loyal to me? Do you offer friendship? And then just a little bit later in that opening part of the film, we see Nazarene, the baker.

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Steve Koh

He has perfected. He's deeply within that more traditional ritualistic notion of justice. He immediately comes. He immediately offers the friendship. Don Corleone, he says, you are one of my most valued friends. The Nazarene just asked briefly to connect his son Enzo with the daughter and have Enzo stay in America. And Don Corleone, he says immediately. Yes, there's no procedures here in the way that we would think of them.

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Steve Koh

Formally, the procedure is a ritualistic, pre-modern procedure. And Michael, as we'll talk about more in a moment. He starts off more in that world of the monarch. He starts off more in that world of the Marines, a kind of formal Department of Defense executive agency, and slowly moves more into that more pre-modern, ritualistic world.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Yet so interesting because when Boneza offers, you know, he says, how much to Don Corleone? How much exactly? Exactly. That's your transactional dad. That's right. Rebuffed.

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Steve Koh

That's right. That's exactly right. And this is another thing that, you know, we as sociologists always talk about. Max Weber talked about how modern society is dominated by bureaucracy and instrumental rationality. So bonus, there is showing that's instrumental sensibility. Look, if I just pay you money just like any other individual, then you can give me services. This is a contemporary transaction.

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Steve Koh

This is a transaction, modern society. And that's. And that's not what matters to Don Corleone. I mean, maybe it matters. Of course. He's you know, you could argue on some level. He's deeply moved by by the material. But but no, you sense that what what matters to him also on some level, are these deep values of loyalty and friendship.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Because he does. And one of the themes of the movie, a line that that comes back over and over again, and what sort of distinguishes Corleone and then Michael from, let's say, Sonny, a James Caan character, the hot tempered one is not to let the personal get in the way right. It's business, not personal. So it's business, but it operates according to sort of different set of rules and norms.

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Steve Koh

That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And I think, you know, obviously we as law professors are aware that these two things are going on at all times. I mean, Stuart McCauley and others have written about, you know, the hold on society tradition is about how do people actually behave in a social way and a sociocultural way in the shadow of the law.

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Steve Koh

So we know that this is happening at all times, and it's not as if we would expect all of this to happen in the kind of formal way that we think about in terms of black letter law. But it is interesting to see how this kind of mix of the business and the personal. The lines are drawn differently in this world.

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Steve Koh

And that's also, again, what makes it such a beautiful opening scene is that you yourself are also kind of socialized into this world as you're watching it. You may also think that the way this world works is, oh, you can pay because we as modern people are watching this film and think, oh, you know, you go to the mob boss and you pay him money.

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Steve Koh

That's the way we think. But no, he's also correcting us is the audience. This is not what I'm about. You need to know this also as a viewer.

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Jonathan Hafetz

And then you know the line is always that there may be some point I may call upon you, right? Or a favor. That day may never come. Right. But if when that day comes, that's the the sort of transactional aspect of that friendship. Right?

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Steve Koh

Yeah, that's exactly right. That's exactly right. There's an expectation for specific performance on the other end. Right, right, right.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Are there other areas or other parts of the film where we see this kind of ambivalence beyond this opening scene toward America and its legal institutions is ambivalence, but not outright rejection?

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Steve Koh

Yes, I think so. So what I what I find intriguing is a kind of two dimensional way to see the film would be to say it's all about how the core of the only family is a source of true justice and the mainstream American legal institutions. And America itself is just corrupt. And of course, it does lend itself to some degree to that interpretation, because again, something we learn from the outside of the film.

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Steve Koh

Congressmen are being given jobs to get ends of the baker into the country. Judges send their apologies that they can't make it to the wedding. There's all these references to judges, congressmen, cops, police officers who are being paid off, whereas the core of the only family is guided by these deeper principles of justice. At the same time, what emerges over time, especially towards the end of the film, is that both Marlon Brando's character, Don Vito Corleone, and Michael.

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Steve Koh

For them, America is still sacred in a way, and this really hit home for me in the very end of the film. Marlon Brando's last long scene with Michael, where he says to Michael, I never wanted this for you. I want you to be Senator Corleone, governor of Corleone. You see that Vito has this longing to actually be part of this mainstream American society.

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Steve Koh

There are values there. There is something about this system that appeals to him. And for Michael, it also seems the same. One of the ways in which he appeals to Kay later in the film is to say soon the core of the only family will be completely legitimate. And of course, he's saying that in a way that means it will comply with positive law.

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Steve Koh

But legitimacy also has a broader ring to it. In that scene, he's trying to say, look, I am not illegitimate, I am not corrupt, I am not wholly immoral. There's something about identifying with the American system in the American legal system that makes me legitimate as a deeper person, as a deeper moral actor. And that sort of revelation, I think, becomes very key to understanding Michael's character, because at first he's part of the Marines.

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Steve Koh

He is literally a good soldier who just fights for his country, then moves deeper into this crime family, kills celotto, etc. but then by the end you see that he's also wants to negotiate his way out. And that's the sort of ambivalence you could say, maybe, that many people have with the immigrant experience in this country. You know, to come in with certain values that you hold true to yourself that may conflict with mainstream American society, but also to really want to be a part of the American society, an American society that is plural.

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Steve Koh

Now, obviously not in the way of this film. You know, plural is to the point where it encompasses organized crime, or at least not in this way. But there is that sort of ambivalence and duality, which is so fascinating.

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Jonathan Hafetz

I mean, I think it is really the arc in the film in some ways, and really across the three with Michael, who's, as you said, right? He's the one who's sort of going to be outside. He's the marine. He's also college educated, but he's going to go exactly the traditional path. But he gets pulled in largely because of, you know, Sonny is killed and he has to save his father, his loyalties to his father.

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Jonathan Hafetz

So he does it. And the idea is he's very good at it. Right? Like a very ruthless, successful mob boss you become. And that's really explored in the second one. And even in the third, the final movie. But it's always he's trying to become legitimate. And there's the line from Godfather three, you know, they pull me back, they pull me back in.

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Jonathan Hafetz

And it's just in a sense that there's like a tragic arc. It's that to trying to sort of go from the illegitimate to the legitimate, and I think ultimately finds that the legitimate world is maybe not all that different, which is another one of those things. Right then the illegitimate.

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Steve Koh

That's exactly right. I think that's exactly right. And the first film forecast that, well, I guess it cuts in different directions, but that also just reminds me of that scene with Kay where she says, well, senators and congressmen don't have people killed. And he says to her, who's being naive? So he always has his eye on the fact that there's not as much of a difference between these mainstream governmental actors and himself.

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Steve Koh

Yet at the same time, he tries to move into this world. And then, as you say, by the very end of the trilogy, he sees that the same world is also deeply pathological.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah, I think that's a great got a great scene with Kay where, you know, she's like, you know, senators and congressmen, politicians, they don't have people kill these. Yeah. You're right. Right. There's sort of a cynical view of it, of the legitimate world, so to speak, but at the same time, like a desire to get into it. And one of the things that sparks the sort of violence, the intra gang violence or into organized crime, violence in The Godfather is the Corleone family refusal to get into narcotics operation.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Vito doesn't want to get into that. The other families are pushing it, and I think when he's going to stand in the way, that's at least seems to be one of the reasons they try to have him removed, which is, you know, interesting. They seem, you know, certain illegal activities, extortion and other things seem okay, but narcotics seems not to.

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Jonathan Hafetz

So there's kind of an interesting division there between two types of illegitimate activities. One seems better than the other.

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Steve Koh

Right. I think that's exactly right. And again, this is where our cultural sociologists would say, if you want to understand the culture, you need to understand the values of the codes or the narratives within that culture. And you look at these binaries, you know what is sacred in a space and what is profane for us as legal academics, for example, what's sacred is intellectual inquiry, and what's profane is something like plagiarism.

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Steve Koh

In this space, you can really tell that Vito thinks that, you know, he says, gambling and women and these other things that he's involved with, maybe, maybe illegal export import with the olive oil. He makes it sound like that's not it's not really profane, it's not really polluted. But there's something about narcotics that can pollute this entire enterprise, and it violates his principles and it violates the cohesion that he sees within his family and within this community around those values.

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Steve Koh

He sees it as corrosive and destabilizing, and it would undermine the solidarity within the within the core, the only family and maybe within the entire kind of organized crime operation. And I think that's also another way for us as readers of the book or as watchers of the film, to also develop some solidarity with him as a character, because we can see, okay, from his perspective within his world.

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Steve Koh

The sacred things are family, loyalty, tradition, food. There's all these symbols of how food, like the cannoli is, is a kind of sacred symbol of the whole tradition.

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Leave the guy like you can only.

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Steve Koh

Whereas, disloyalty, betrayal, some of these modern, corrupt legal actors are polluted and narcotics itself can pollute everything.

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Jonathan Hafetz

And I do think it's important in terms of the, as you say, like in terms of the audience identifying and how you know and why and what what in the Godfather and a number of other Mafia movies allows viewers to identify. And so as we root for these sort of characters are doing, you know, committing violent crimes, doing some horrific things, that is maybe this sort of internal logic, the internal cohesion, the sort of code that they go by, right?

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Jonathan Hafetz

If they're out. Right. Sort of like, you know, kind of open sort of sociopaths. Right? Like, kind of like a Whitey Bulger character. It's the audience that can identify. But this is where there are these sort of limits. I mean, there's some moral like code that, that they operate by.

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Steve Koh

Yeah, that's exactly right. And I think that's what that's why we like as viewers to see documentaries. For example, you know, I watched this documentary, I was younger called song about these young guys studying for the wine sommelier exam. They're just completely obsessed with passing this exam to become a master somewhere. Yeah. And when you first start watching, it's just seems so strange.

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Steve Koh

I mean, these guys are memorizing all these different subcategories of grapes and all these different tastes, and they're tasting blind tasting, but it's fascinating to go within any world and see the symbols, codes and narratives that animate that world. And once you do, you start to see that obviously there's always bad faith actors, there's always dangerous people, there's always actors that we would call bad.

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Steve Koh

But within those worlds, they're obviously to themselves operating within a world of meaning that where they are the protagonists or they're operating in a way that that for them makes sense based on their values and some percentage of the time that is true. And that's what makes the film so compelling.

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Jonathan Hafetz

And just keeping with the theme. One of the only one of the like, the great insights Michael has, right? It might shows his sort of ability to kind of like, think a little bit out of the box is after, you know, they're trying to get his father right. And they're worried because. So Lotso. Right. Is is he's he's protected by the cops and his corrupt cop McClusky.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Sterling Hayden. And they're like, you know, all the other top leadership in the Corleone family are like, we can't kill cop. Like, that's right. It's a line you can cross, right? Because you know, the law. The law will, you know, look at certain things. But if you start killing cops, you're going to bring the law and everyone else upon you.

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Jonathan Hafetz

And Michael says, you know, wait a minute. This is a dirty cop. Yeah, right. And so if we go ahead and we kill him, you know, I mean, he's tainted to being a dirty cop. We'll get away with it. And. Yes. Right. There's a great scene right in the Italian restaurant where Michael goes, he stashes a gun in the toilet where they stashed a gun for him in the toilet.

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Jonathan Hafetz

He comes out, he shoots the cop and sorts of point blank, and he has to flee for a while to Sicily. But he gets away with it. And he's right. Like the papers talk about, the story turns that this dirty cop was killed. You know, that's that line about you can't kill police, but if the police are corrupt, maybe you can.

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Steve Koh

That's right. Which goes to the ambivalence again of the whole film. If you stick on one hand, the police officers show some responsibility. So, for example, at one point right after the hospital scene where we see McCluskey for the first time, he orders some of the police officers to arrest Michael and take him into to jail. And the police officers resist.

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Steve Koh

So? So they do have some sense of ethics and morals and responsibility and how they go about it. But then at the same time, Van McCloskey says, okay, well then stand him up. I'm going to punch him myself. So you see that sort of tension with the police right in that scene, the police are seen as corrupt but still abiding by some sort of code, which is just at least some percentage of the time.

00;24;20;20 - 00;24;40;11

Steve Koh

What's also intriguing, I think, is that scene with Michael where he pitches, killing them himself. I actually show that scene in my first year criminal law class because the chapter on murder, first degree murder, premeditated killing, it just jumps right in with some of the ambiguities of like what is premeditation, deliberation, etc.. So I said, what does this actually look like?

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Steve Koh

What does this actually look like? And I show that scene and it's still compelling. I mean, students still love watching that scene. And I've noticed because I've rewatched each year in the spring semester, you can see the cameras slowly pan in or move in, zoom in on Al Pacino's face as you slowly going through. They're going to be expecting this.

00;25;01;21 - 00;25;21;13

Steve Koh

They're going to be expecting that we have to kill him, etc., etc. and it ends with him saying I'll kill them both myself. So first of all, cinema too, graphically, it's beautifully done. It's perfectly done. What's also interesting is that for someone to be persuasive in a space, they need to be performatively strong. They need to have good performance.

00;25;21;13 - 00;25;39;12

Steve Koh

So if we think of great figures, people who have seized the stage in a culture, they're good performance for Barack Obama. Some say he came out of nowhere. But one of the things that he had, and frankly, that Donald Trump also has is this ability to seize the stage, regardless of whether we like what they're saying or not.

00;25;39;15 - 00;25;56;28

Steve Koh

And Michael seizes the stage in that scene, he's able to pull on the background representations within the family. Can you kill a cop? We might say no, but actually, maybe you can. And we have people on the payroll who are journalists. We can pollute him in the public eye. We can do this because we have to. It's not business.

00;25;56;28 - 00;26;17;10

Steve Koh

It's personal. He finds a way to pull on all of these ideas in the air and completely take control of the room, and that's a juxtaposition with what happens just before. This is something I also notice this time around, watching the film is just before the monologue. Tom and Sonny are fighting. They're fighting about what to do next, and they're angry and they're in disagreement.

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Steve Koh

And Michael's cold, calculated but also persuasive performance is able to seize the stage. And that's the moment where he starts to take a step forward.

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Jonathan Hafetz

And again, it's not it's not personal. It's business. Right. Exactly.

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Steve Koh

Right. Exactly.

00;26;30;28 - 00;26;36;03

Jonathan Hafetz

And he's the one who sort of as a for Sonny. It's all personal, right? Yeah.

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Steve Koh

Exactly right. You're right. He says that business will suffer. You know, he says that at one point. So Michael is good at kind of he knows the values in the room. He knows what people care about. And someone who's a dexterous performer can pull on all those different values, create their own script and say, this is really what we're doing.

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Steve Koh

And again, that's what Barack Obama was able to do in the 2008 election, is to say, this is who we are.

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Jonathan Hafetz

And so we're on a long film podcast about the organized crime family we have. Talk about the lawyer, right?

00;27;04;10 - 00;27;06;00

Steve Koh

Yeah, yeah, of course there is a lawyer.

00;27;06;00 - 00;27;06;24

Jonathan Hafetz

In the movie. Right.

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Steve Koh

Okay. All right.

00;27;07;18 - 00;27;29;02

Jonathan Hafetz

All right. The conciliatory legal advisor Donnie and his play, like by Robert Duvall in both one and two, apparently was not a three to a contract dispute. How does he. You know, he's a central character, right? In some ways. And he's a deal one of the most trusted advisors. How does the conciliatory fit within this kind of frame of law and justice and the themes we're talking about?

00;27;29;05 - 00;27;46;16

Steve Koh

Yeah, it's so fascinating. You know, I know you picked up on that. You had told me before the podcast, and it was something that I had not originally thought about. So what I was struck by, first of all, when watching him was the first thing that really popped for me is when he's talking to Jack. Walt's the film producer, and he says to him, I'm a lawyer, I have not threatened you.

00;27;46;18 - 00;28;16;18

Steve Koh

And that moment really helped me to realize that. Hagan is an interesting figure because he is a lawyer, his presumably a member of the bar. She knows the formal positive law, and because he knows the formal positive law, she knows the gap between where that positive law is and and perhaps where the ethics rules are and therefore can advise the family on a deeper way around justice so he can kind of move in both worlds.

00;28;16;18 - 00;28;45;25

Steve Koh

So when he says to Walt's, I'm a lawyer, I've not threatened you. He's donning the cloak of someone who has this formal legal authority, and that gives him a certain credibility in the world. At the same time, he seems like the sort of lawyer. So, for example, we know based on the ethics rules, even if you're a criminal defense attorney, you can't encourage your client to commit some other crime, or you can encourage them to commit perjury, for example, you know, whereas you get the impression of Tom Hagen, he would advise his client to do that.

00;28;45;25 - 00;29;05;26

Steve Koh

So he's willing to advise within the fullest extent of the positive law, perhaps even at risk of himself, because he knows where those lines are, the line between formal law and black letter law, and a deeper sense of justice as he sees it. And therefore it's interesting because he can be in the world. He can be talking to Jack Waltz in a way that Sonny cannot.

00;29;05;27 - 00;29;21;24

Steve Koh

If Sonny or Clemenza just showed up to see Jack Waltz, that would be a completely different conversation. These guys are not lawyers. They're not, I think the implications they're not college educated either. Only Michael's college educated. But Hagan has that ability. Hagan has the ability. Then the second thing, which you just mentioned go in the counsel. Your point.

00;29;21;27 - 00;29;40;12

Steve Koh

At the end of the day, he's an advisor. He's an advisor. The implication and I think this is in the book and there's there's a deleted scene, there's a console Yari. But Don Vito Corleone, he has at the beginning of the film named Jenko. Jenko olive oil Company is named after that character, and he dies at the very beginning of the film.

00;29;40;12 - 00;30;01;15

Steve Koh

In the end, Coppola took it out of the film that premiered it that actually debuted in the theaters, but Jenko was a Sicilian, and that's something that comes out later on. Sonny says to Tom, if I had a real Sicilian, I wouldn't be in this mess. So that suggests, actually there's a limit of what Tom can advise, given that he's not Sicilian, but nonetheless he is playing a role that a lawyer would play.

00;30;01;15 - 00;30;24;11

Steve Koh

He's advising his client on the best course of action based on a different set of knowledge, or a different set of intuitions based on some other knowledge and some other practice. And that's that's again, a kind of deep, almost pre-modern, traditional way to think of an advisor in contemporary law. The way we might talk about the classroom is, oh, well, I need to consult my attorney.

00;30;24;16 - 00;30;46;05

Steve Koh

I've got my right to an attorney, you know, in an interrogation context and the Fifth Amendment or something. But The Godfather shows us this kind of deeper role. Someone who's an advisor, someone who is expert, someone who has knowledge to influence. That makes them not essential, perhaps, to the story, but playing a critical advisory role.

00;30;46;08 - 00;31;06;15

Jonathan Hafetz

The wise counsel, I mean, and he. Right. And as you said, like he just when he goes whenever they're intersecting with the, you know, the legitimate work of the Hollywood producer gambling interests right things business, the lawyer, you know, just as, Clemens is not going to show up, at the Hollywood producer's house, Tom Hagan's not going to show up to collect, you know, extortion payments from some guy, right?

00;31;06;20 - 00;31;06;28

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah.

00;31;06;28 - 00;31;07;14

Steve Koh

Exactly. Right.

00;31;07;19 - 00;31;20;04

Jonathan Hafetz

He's there for when they have to interface with this world. The other interesting reference I noticed again, this time rewatching is at least once there's a reference to things that they won't have time do. You're not you're not a war time consul Yari, which is.

00;31;20;07 - 00;31;20;15

Steve Koh

Quite.

00;31;20;15 - 00;31;21;02

Jonathan Hafetz

Interesting.

00;31;21;07 - 00;31;25;23

Steve Koh

It's a very good point. Yes. Well, so how do you read that, Jonathan? I mean, how do you read that?

00;31;25;26 - 00;31;42;01

Jonathan Hafetz

One way to read it is there are certain things that we're not going to have you do we're going to try to keep you, you know, because in more time we're going to do things you might even have to be privy to conversations and things that you know you can't do. So that's one way to look at it or the other end, you know, you don't, you know, that's not what's your your strength.

00;31;42;08 - 00;31;44;04

Jonathan Hafetz

But I think it's probably the former.

00;31;44;06 - 00;32;07;17

Steve Koh

Yeah. I mean it's interesting again, to think about the conscience of Genco, who again is not in the, in the film in the original release. But I think the implication is that Genco was an old school Sicilian, probably came from Sicily himself. He had seen these cycles of wars. He had seen these cycles of vendettas so he could advise in a way that has more power and precision in that world.

00;32;07;19 - 00;32;29;22

Steve Koh

Whereas Tom is adopted, you know, he's, Irish, German, I think, as he says at one point. So he doesn't have that sort of visceral knowledge. He doesn't have that visceral knowledge. What you also mentioned, I want to make sure to say also with you mentioned that there are places where he can go, places where he can't go to things that occur to me, as you said, that one is the story is told at the wedding.

00;32;29;22 - 00;32;56;06

Steve Koh

At Connie's wedding, Michael tells a story to okay with Luca Brasi. They go to release Johnny Fontane from the contract for $10,000. The bandleader says no. In that first moment where they all meet, presumably Tom Hagen has drafted that contract, right? That's a kind of formal contract and asking for release. But then the second time of The Godfather goes back, he goes back with Luca Brasi and Luca Brasi, says, either your signature or your brains will be on this contract.

00;32;56;08 - 00;33;18;11

Steve Koh

You could imagine Tom's not there for them. Tom's not there for that. That's not something that he wants to draft. That's not the very in modern instrumental, bureaucratic. No, that's just raw, pre-modern kind of power, you know? And then also with the movement West, they cut Tom out. Michael especially is very harsh with that. And he says.

00;33;18;13 - 00;33;24;14

I can just make it up with the movie. Try maybe I could help you out, Tom.

00;33;24;17 - 00;33;34;09

Steve Koh

So they're also mindful of the fact that Tom does need to be at arm's length sometimes in order to preserve his legal credibility in the outside world.

00;33;34;11 - 00;33;59;17

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah, it's such an interesting an interesting character. So. And I think it fits with what you're saying before about this ambivalence towards American. It's legal institutions, right? They have to play in that space as the right Tom Hagen. But on the other hand, you know, they do things around him. So you talked about, you know, your current field, cultural sociology, some themes that kind of fit within this are the tension between modernity and tradition.

00;33;59;17 - 00;34;07;06

Jonathan Hafetz

We've talked a little bit about this, but are there ways other ways that Michael's character kind of moves across these different, these different worlds.

00;34;07;08 - 00;34;35;22

Steve Koh

So yes, as cultural sociologists, when we ask what is culture? One of our commitments is to say culture has autonomy. It exists and can be analyzed independently from other material interests, like the economic sphere. For example, when you say culture has influence, it has causal influence on how individuals act, and that the way I usually describe culture from this tradition, anyway, from my intellectual tradition, is patterns of meaning inside of your world.

00;34;35;22 - 00;35;04;24

Steve Koh

What is meaningful to you? We can start to articulate certain things that are meaningful. There are certain values. There are certain narratives. There are certain symbols. For example, the symbol of the cannoli, you know, or the symbol of, all Clemenza talking about all the food. All the food symbolizes this, this world. It's packed with meaning. If you just look at that one thing and I think the symbols that differentiate this traditional culture or the Sicilian culture versus the modern culture is Apollonian.

00;35;04;24 - 00;35;21;22

Steve Koh

And okay, so it's an interesting question. Why is it that Mario Puzo put these two women into the film? And by the way, as a side note, I thought the some of the criticisms I saw in Barbie about the film were 100%. I mean, there's a thousand ways to criticize this film from a gender perspective and from all other perspectives.

00;35;21;24 - 00;35;52;10

Steve Koh

But I think from a dark time in perspective, we could say, okay, symbolizes the modern world. The suburban Long Island, modern world, and Apollonius symbolizes the Sicilian world for example, with with K, we see her in these gray buildings there, one on one together in the hotel early in the film, she doesn't know any of the ways of the wedding when we see her later on, when Michael reunites with her, she's holding the hand of a child.

00;35;52;10 - 00;36;27;24

Steve Koh

It looks like, in some sort of school setting. But these are not her children, and they're in this kind of gray kind of October. It looks like a late October day. In the suburbs. There's pavement, whereas Apollonia, she symbolizes this more traditional life, what Durkheim would call mechanical solidarity, where people are really just bonded by kinship, by, you know, if I'd been born, a few decades ago in my, I mean, ethnically half frame, half Lebanese, I'd be born in Chad, you island in Korea where everyone around me is Korean, everyone else lives in that village, dies in that village and on my Lebanese side, the same thing, right?

00;36;27;24 - 00;36;53;29

Steve Koh

Everyone speaks the same thing. Everyone lives in the same place. Everyone dies. Whereas nowadays it's such so much more complex. Apollonia, I think, symbolizes that older time, you know, she's wearing red. She appears not in the suburban pavement in October, but in the blue and beige of the hot Sicilian summer. She's holding the hand of a child, but she's surrounded by what looks like other people from the village, other women from the village.

00;36;54;02 - 00;37;16;04

Steve Koh

And when Michael interacts with her, he's not interacting with her. One on one in a cold Manhattan hotel room. He can't even meet her until he's tick the box of formally interacting with the father, formally giving gifts to the entire family. When they take their walk, they're followed by all the women of the village and then the guards.

00;37;16;06 - 00;37;20;03

Steve Koh

It symbolizes the differences between these two cultures.

00;37;20;05 - 00;37;41;21

Jonathan Hafetz

It really does. And, you know, obviously had Apollonia not tragically died, but she's killed in the car bomb meant for Mike. All right, you're married. Stay with her. And she would have been, in a sense, the more traditional Mafia life. Right. Whereas Kay is modern and resist. Right. As she understood it, Michael was he was from this family, but he wasn't a part of it.

00;37;41;21 - 00;37;58;09

Jonathan Hafetz

And that was what was originally the case. And then, you know, he gets involved and further and further involved. But he's always the promises. He's always telling her it's we're going to make this like we talked about before. We're going to become legitimate. Right. And he'll get out of it. But deeper, deeper in in the end is she's kind of, you know, shut out.

00;37;58;09 - 00;38;10;20

Jonathan Hafetz

Right. Both. You know, one ends with Kay outside the door. Right. And then I think two is when the, you know, the door closes on her, you know, he's not going to let her take the children away. So she's in a sense she's modernity and she's pushed out.

00;38;10;22 - 00;38;36;11

Steve Koh

I think that's right. And in the beginning of the film, Michael has the line. He says to her, that's my family, that's not me, which is a line that many people might utter nowadays in 2025, in the United States. But again, that's not the way many people felt within their families. For for most of human history, I know in Korea, for example, if I were to introduce myself in Korean, the first thing I would say is the name cut.

00;38;36;14 - 00;38;57;00

Steve Koh

That's my last name in the West, but in Korea, that's the first name. I would say that's my family name. And then my Korean first name is one young. The one belongs to all the other members of my generation. So my brother and all my male cousins, we all have the same for so syllable. My sister and all my female cousins also share a syllable, so only the last syllable belongs to me individually.

00;38;57;02 - 00;39;16;10

Steve Koh

And that's obviously it's just very different. But Michael has a hard, modern bifurcation between him and his family at the beginning of the film, and by the end, Kay is shut up because she is still existing in the modern world, presumably the world that brought them together in the first place when they, you know, again in the Manhattan hotel room, going to see the play.

00;39;16;12 - 00;39;21;16

Steve Koh

But right now he's on the other side of the line, he's on the other side alive, and he's gone through that transformation.

00;39;21;19 - 00;39;39;05

Jonathan Hafetz

And he proves in a way, I mean, he's proven unable ultimately to, you know, protect her ultimately and to get assassination done once get shot and then three, the daughter is killed. Right. So it's ultimately like, you know, he fails to do that. I mean, another thing that they the centers on is rituals, right? We have.

00;39;39;05 - 00;39;39;12

Steve Koh

Yeah.

00;39;39;15 - 00;40;04;18

Jonathan Hafetz

This film opens with the wedding funerals, baptisms. I mean, it's the baptism where it's during the baptism of their child that Michael executes the brilliant plan to have the other heads of the leading families killed. So all these different sort of central parts of the film are associated with rituals. So those how do those kind of play in, in terms of distinguishing what we talked about a little bit earlier about the sacred and profane.

00;40;04;21 - 00;40;28;07

Steve Koh

So first of all, ritual may sound maybe a little foreign to some listeners in 2025, but we can think of ritual as any sort of space where there's some sort of gathering of individuals to reaffirm meanings and potentially some transformation. So, for example, a ritual might be a presidential inauguration or, it could be a trial or maybe the reading out of a verdict.

00;40;28;07 - 00;40;52;22

Steve Koh

Everyone gathers inside of this room in the same way. Once again, as the court always does, and someone reads off the verdict. We have all sorts of rituals. When the court oral arguments before the Supreme Court, you know. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, oh, yeah. You know, all the people walked in after that said. So we have all of these collective procedures and rituals in which we gather and something happens socially.

00;40;52;25 - 00;41;14;04

Steve Koh

Think of a wedding as the clearest example. The bride and the groom enter separately, or it could be two brides in two groups, and there's some sort of ceremony, and at the end they walk out together. Everyone's the same, everyone's physically the same. But there's been a symbolic transformation. There's been a social transformation in that moment of ritual.

00;41;14;06 - 00;41;32;27

Steve Koh

And what I was so struck by watching the film this time, as there are, I think, five different rituals that took place and they kind of overlap with the ritual of the Catholic tradition most of the time. So the first one is Connie's wedding, the second one is Michael and Apollonius wedding. The third one is the funeral of Don Vito.

00;41;33;00 - 00;41;51;03

Steve Koh

The fourth is the baptism, which is the most explicitly ritualistic scene, and the final one is Carlo's execution, which is also its own kind of ritual. And what we see in each of these is a kind of in moments of ritual, we can understand what is meaningful for a certain culture. So what is meaningful in these sacred rituals?

00;41;51;03 - 00;42;15;12

Steve Koh

For example, in the first scene, well, first of all, the love of Connie and, Carlo, which obviously goes south, but also the day is so sacred that no Sicilian can refuse a request on the day of his daughter's wedding. So he himself is upholding the sacredness of the day by complying with all these requests. And as a side note, we see that some of the other sons are completely not upholding the sacred nature.

00;42;15;12 - 00;42;35;29

Steve Koh

You know, Sonny is having an affair with a bridesmaid. Freedom is extremely drunk. At Michael and Apollonius wedding. We see what's sacred. There is the broader family ties. There are so many family members at this, but I think that the key ritual is really the baptism scene. So this is something that one of my good friends pointed out to me years ago.

00;42;36;02 - 00;43;07;07

Steve Koh

What's happening in that scene? He's becoming the godfather and he's becoming the Godfather. In other words, he's becoming godfather to Connie's child in the Catholic traditional way. There's a transformation there. The beginning. He's not the godfather. And after he says all these things, he becomes the Godfather. But there's also a transformation because he's also participating in this ritual of violence, and he is solidifying his transformation into truly becoming the godfather because he eliminates the heads of the rest of the families.

00;43;07;07 - 00;43;34;03

Steve Koh

Right. That's what rituals do. What I also thought was interesting about this is Connie's wedding. Michael and Apollonius wedding, and the funeral. We don't see that much of the Catholic ritual there, but for the baptism, we're really there, which I think signifies Michael's transition to really being deeply within the pre-modern Durkheim in ritualistic space. This is no longer Michael showing up late to the reception.

00;43;34;03 - 00;43;59;27

Steve Koh

You know, he didn't make it, but now he's here and he's wearing his military uniform. No, he is a central player in the Catholic Church on the altar. And he's the central player in eliminating the heads of the five families. And then finally, the final ritual we see is the execution. And this is something that didn't occur to me until this, until this time, watching it is again in the old ways in which law, the same person we always said was judge, jury and executioner.

00;43;59;29 - 00;44;23;23

Steve Koh

And we see Michael playing that role essentially in the final scene with Carlo. And that's a very long scene. And I noticed that at the end of the scene, Michael is watching as Carlo is executed. So he comes in, he interrogates Carlo, he abstracts the confession. He has already sentenced Carlo to death, and then he witnesses the execution himself.

00;44;23;25 - 00;44;33;11

Steve Koh

And that's really the ultimate final ritual that again, he's deeply a part of, which shows his deep transformation into this old space.

00;44;33;14 - 00;44;53;01

Jonathan Hafetz

I mean, the baptisms in Miami, most famous sequence from the one of the most from the movies where it's just fully immersed into this space. Now we'll just go back to Vito for a second. We talked about performance, and, Michael occupies the space in some sense. The same can be said for Vito, although his style seems different.

00;44;53;01 - 00;45;06;02

Jonathan Hafetz

The role that, you know, performance plays, obviously, you know, we have the ultimate performer in Brando, but I mean, he is a different, as we all kind of stuff. And they both they both have the same huge kind of gravitas and authority when they conduct business.

00;45;06;05 - 00;45;22;18

Steve Koh

Yes. This is also something that really pop for me this time around. Doing all these graduate studies right now in the PhD is for someone to seize the stage. As I mentioned before, they need to be good performers and that applies to politicians, all of us, to teachers like you and me. What makes for a good law professor?

00;45;22;25 - 00;45;41;16

Steve Koh

It's not simply that we know the law or that we know our students names. There's a performative aspect to teaching, and part of the performance is we need to be able to pull together all of these different ingredients for the students in a new way, to have our own unique script in the classroom and for the students to feel like they leave the classroom every day with a sense of fusion.

00;45;41;16 - 00;46;05;23

Steve Koh

They've kind of fuzed with the whole performance. They feel like they've taken something away. Maybe they even lost themselves a little bit in the class. They lost themselves in the debate in the same way that someone might lose themselves if they attend a compelling performance of King Lear, for example. And what's so striking in watching the different characters in the Corleone family is Vito Brando is has the highest performative ability.

00;46;05;25 - 00;46;24;00

Steve Koh

So we see him in the film rebuff to Sara, but then ultimately pull him into the fold. A moment later, we see him with Nazarene, the Baker Nazarene. The baker doesn't even have to finish his sentence. Vito is completing his sentence. He says, you want Enzo to stay in the country, and you want your daughter and Enzo to be married.

00;46;24;00 - 00;46;47;16

Steve Koh

And the baker says in response, you understand everything. He humors Luca Brasi, even though Luca Brasi is clumsy, he dances beautifully with his daughter when he rejects a lot. So, you know, he sits next to him. He offers him a drink. He says, it doesn't matter to me what a man does with his business. And then, of course, his ultimate performance is in that final gathering with all the heads of the families.

00;46;47;19 - 00;47;14;19

Steve Koh

He has to felicitous leave thread that line between recognizing that his family's done wrong, recognizing the harm that's been done to his family, trying to end the violence, trying to not offer too much, but not offer too little. And at the end, he stands up and he says, I will never be the one to break the peace. And his performance is so persuasive that at the end, he and Bruno d'Italia hug each other.

00;47;14;22 - 00;47;35;04

Steve Koh

That seals the deal, that seals the deal. And I think this is the reason why I know that, Coppola said. When he was casting Vito, he wanted an actor whose shadow was so large that you could feel his presence even when he's not in it, because actually, Brando is not in the film that much, get shot pretty early, and then he's gone for most of the middle part, and then he dies towards the end.

00;47;35;07 - 00;47;57;11

Steve Koh

But Brando himself is an excellent performer, and therefore Vito is such a perfect performer that he can Felicitas really just seamlessly thread all these needles. Whereas as we already mentioned, you know, Sonny can't do that. Sonny is too hotheaded, you know, he's clumsy, he irritates people. He, you know, he turns people off. He's violent against Clemenza, he's violent against Fredo, is awkward.

00;47;57;11 - 00;48;15;22

Steve Koh

You know, we see how clumsy Fredo is. I also noticed even in Vegas, he organizes this awkward party for Michael. And then when he realizes Michael doesn't like it, he tells the girls to scram. So he turns on a dime. And then, of course, Michael himself. In some ways, he is a good performer. He is able to extract the confession from Carlo.

00;48;15;24 - 00;48;39;14

Steve Koh

He is able to pretend to be a bodyguard at the hospital, but he's also cold. I mean, I was struck this time around. He likes Vito's warmth, and I think that's ultimately, you know, in two that becomes even worse. So at least in one, you can see that there are these moments where he shows some humanity. But even then, with Vitelli, the first time he meets Apollonius father, he's just checked out.

00;48;39;14 - 00;48;58;17

Steve Koh

He's not engaged, you know. Or when, Tom, you know, you see the tension in their performance. And Michael versus Vito in the scene where Tom's saying, why am I out? Vito sits next to Tom. He says, look, I honestly I advise Michael in this way, and you know, this is not what we want, but this is what needs to happen.

00;48;58;19 - 00;49;11;17

Steve Koh

But Michael just says, you're out. Tom. So Michael doesn't have that performative power. He can't. In many ways you can, but he doesn't have to have it as much as his father. Again, that's one thing that leads to his downfall. Ultimately.

00;49;11;19 - 00;49;31;09

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah. I mean, he is in some sense probably ultimately more ruthless in the end. You see it as you talked about and one laid out with the tensions over Fredo, but probably the other seminal part of two. And one of the key moments of the whole trilogy is, of course, when he gives the order for Fredo, his brother, to be killed.

00;49;31;09 - 00;49;51;15

Jonathan Hafetz

Right? I mean, you always have the relationship between personal and business and family and the operators, but ultimately they collide. And, I mean, that's sort of taking taking that to its furthest conclusion, so much that, you know, he's going to have his own brother killed. And to me, you know, that's sort of where it all. I mean, it doesn't happen in one, but it's pointing towards that.

00;49;51;17 - 00;49;52;18

Jonathan Hafetz

That's the direction it's moving.

00;49;52;18 - 00;50;13;07

Steve Koh

And I think that's right. And, you know, killing Carlo, his brother in law at the end of one foreshadows that as well. Obviously, I, as an audience member feel conflicted the whole time because of the all the moral ambiguities in the film. But, you know, to actually order your brother in law killed. At this point, Michael settled all his debts, and all these other families have been massacred.

00;50;13;10 - 00;50;32;19

Steve Koh

He could have easily just let Carlo stay within the estate in, in Nevada. And that would have been fine. And that's what Connie says to him at the end. But no, he felt the need to coldly engage in this retribution for the killing of, son on the retribution thing is another thing, actually, that that dovetails with criminal law.

00;50;32;21 - 00;50;43;13

Jonathan Hafetz

There has to be this retribution, I guess, with the scene with Carlo. Michael wants to know, you know, he wants to hear it himself before he does it. And so he does. He, as you said, he plays the role judge, jury, executioner.

00;50;43;15 - 00;51;01;11

Steve Koh

You know, I know when I teach criminal law, we always talk about theories of punishment. And whenever I engage in Socratic with students about retribution, on one hand I say for the students who say that they like the retributive theory, I say, okay, just desserts has a certain appeal. But this eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth is, Gandhi said, leaves everyone blind and toothless.

00;51;01;13 - 00;51;28;29

Steve Koh

Sonny really has that retributive quality. He just wants to engage in this tit for tat. And so does Michael, it seems. Whereas I notice that Vito, again, the ultimate performer right after Sonny's been killed, he comes down and he has that one on one with Tom Hagen. And Tom tells Vito Sonny's been killed. They shot him on the causeway, and Brando's character could have easily said, okay, we're going to take it up another level.

00;51;28;29 - 00;52;09;14

Steve Koh

But instead he says, I want no inquiries made. Call the heads of the five families. You know, this law stops now. So that shows a limit to his retributive impulse, which again shows his wisdom and his performance of Felicity as the head of a family, which Michael and Sonny Lock, Michael and Sonny Lock. And again, it ultimately spells especially well, actually, it spells both of their doom because it spells Sonny's doom, because he finds out that his sister has been abused again, and he cannot do anything other than think about beating Carlo to a pulp as we see him do early in the film, all he's thinking about is retribution and maybe, specific deterrence.

00;52;09;16 - 00;52;15;23

Steve Koh

Whereas you could imagine Vito having a different approach to this somehow.

00;52;15;26 - 00;52;40;04

Jonathan Hafetz

The Godfather was wildly successful and led to The Godfather two, as we've talked about, which at least about two years later, equally acclaimed. And not just that, but a string of organized crime movies. I mean, could you know too many to list? Goodfellas, casino departed, just to name a few. Plus, you know, iconic, genre defining TV shows like The Sopranos.

00;52;40;07 - 00;52;51;05

Jonathan Hafetz

What explains or what do you think helps explain the success and popularity of the genre and what does that tell us about, like law and culture in America and people's relationship to it?

00;52;51;07 - 00;53;13;13

Steve Koh

Yeah, I mean, I think what it really captures is that especially on the legal front, most of us feel some percentage of the time that there can be some gap between the law and what we think to be our deeper notions of justice. And some people and some communities, especially historically marginalized communities, have caught up with certain aspects of the legal system.

00;53;13;17 - 00;53;31;24

Steve Koh

And again, in criminal law, the criminal legal system in particular. But most of us know that there is some distance between the two. And again, you know, as teachers, this is one of the things we hit home from the first day towards professors. Talk about no duty to rescue, you know, or, you know, in criminal law we say if there's no mission, it's not necessarily an actress race.

00;53;32;00 - 00;53;58;26

Steve Koh

It's really just a culpable omission that we're really concerned about. So I think any sort of genre that can bring out the tension between formal law and then especially formal law and are deeply visceral notion of justice is just going to be compelling, compelling for a, a reader, maybe because it is pulling on our deep values. I mean, anything that, for example, Breaking Bad is just the first thing to pop into my head.

00;53;58;29 - 00;54;17;27

Steve Koh

So Vince Gilligan said at the beginning of the first season, they did everything they could to make Walter White the protagonist, seem sympathetic, so his working hard, he doesn't have enough money. He's working in a car wash to make extra money. His kids are making fun of him. His son is physically disabled. He has another child on the way.

00;54;18;00 - 00;54;38;10

Steve Koh

He's suffered this humiliation with the Gray Matter company. You feel a sense that you're rooting for him and the deep values at play? There are some people are suffering. Some people are suffering who are in difficult situations. We want someone like that to succeed. It just pulls on our deep moral intuitions as to what is just or what is right.

00;54;38;12 - 00;54;58;08

Steve Koh

And then to have a character like that slowly transform more and more into darkness is is compelling for us as viewers, I think in the same way. And going back to where we started with the bonus hour monologue, everyone can agree that if two individuals have been convicted for attempted rape and battery, there should be some sort of consequence for them.

00;54;58;10 - 00;55;14;04

Steve Koh

But to have a court of law, say, suspended sentence, to have the individuals walk free that very day opens up that gap. And I guess these Mafia movies, I haven't seen that many of them. I think they often play on that sort of ambiguity or that tension between the two.

00;55;14;07 - 00;55;37;24

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah. And there's just, I think, a fascination with the rules in which they operate. And there's something compelling about it. I mean, interestingly, the Mafia itself, organized crime itself, did not want The Godfather to get made. There's a group called the Italian-American Civil Rights League, which was led by a reputed mobster named Joe Colombo said it would perpetuate negative stereotypes of Italian-Americans of the Mafia.

00;55;37;26 - 00;55;56;17

Jonathan Hafetz

They tried to pressure the studio and Coppola, ultimately, they struck some deal with the word Mafia was removed from the script, which was actually a very easy to accommodate the setting. It was only mentioned once or twice before, and, but in any event, the opposition is kind of faded, you know, by that. The mob was apparently from and I know love like sopranos and so they've kind of change.

00;55;56;17 - 00;56;08;26

Jonathan Hafetz

It's sort of interesting to see that, you know, within the sort of organized crime or what remains of it, that they kind of like seeing their life celebrated on screen. And that's kind of their view of themselves as part of American law and culture.

00;56;08;29 - 00;56;30;01

Steve Koh

Yeah, it's actually interesting. I mean, they basically become symbolized. They become symbols of, yes, maybe cultures and communities that have different sets of rules and are in opposition to the state. I mean, you see, the cover of Jay-Z's first album, Reasonable Doubt, you know, he's dressed kind of like one of those old Sinatra esque Brando ask figures.

00;56;30;03 - 00;56;45;26

Steve Koh

You know, there's something intriguing about seeing these people as kind of noble and noble because they symbolize a kind of alternative code that actually has more morality and more justice than than the polluted formal legal systems that exist so compelling.

00;56;46;04 - 00;57;08;21

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah, yeah. No. It's interesting. I mean, one thing they don't really I don't think explore and that godfather that comes up in other movies is of course, the other type of betrayal. Right? The betrayal in The Godfather is dealt with. What leads to like, Fritos demise, right, is you don't take a position against the family, but of course, the other big betrayal which is explored and, you know, a number of other movies is The Informant, right?

00;57;08;28 - 00;57;27;24

Jonathan Hafetz

And I think, you know, for whatever it is, the, you know, The Godfather, it's kind of set in a time before three Rico, three real federal law enforcement efforts to go after the Mafia and to try to turn people. But it is this other idea, this idea, this this sort of code of loyalty and and the idea that you don't, you know, right.

00;57;28;01 - 00;57;31;24

Jonathan Hafetz

You know, you have to be loyal to the family. And that's the sort of defining thing.

00;57;31;27 - 00;57;49;06

Steve Koh

Yeah. So I think that's right. I think the two characters that come to mind, one in part one and one in part two, is so Paulie is the turncoat bodyguard and he's just executed. He's executed for his portrayal. I mean, he's not an informant, but I think the implication has been paid off by, you know, like Sonny says, he's sold out pop.

00;57;49;08 - 00;57;54;11

Steve Koh

So he's dealt with swiftly by Clemenza. And to leave the gun, take the cannolis in.

00;57;54;13 - 00;58;01;23

Jonathan Hafetz

Oh, by the way, I mean, which is fairly improvised. And so I read. But just going back with your your point about food, right. Leave the guy. Yeah. But guy.

00;58;01;25 - 00;58;21;24

Steve Koh

Yeah. That's right. And what was also brilliant about that scene, speaking of symbols, the Statue of Liberty, which is, you could argue, the ultimate American symbol. You know, Clemenza is literally relieving himself in front of that symbol as this crime is happening, showing that they just are proclaiming the whole thing. And the gun doesn't matter. The Statue of Liberty doesn't matter.

00;58;21;24 - 00;58;39;21

Steve Koh

All that matters is a family with the can only be the symbol. But in part two, just going back to the other thing you were saying in part two, Frank potentially is brought in. He's a member of the family. He flips, he's cooperating with the congressional investigation. Presumably he's cooperating with the FBI or with federal law enforcement as well.

00;58;39;23 - 00;58;56;02

Steve Koh

And what is it that brings him back from the brink? Because they say nothing can get him. Nothing can get him from and again, from the kind of modern criminal law perspective. Yeah. You can't get to a witness that's highly, highly protected by federal law enforcement. Decoy cars, all those sorts of things they show. But why can't get to him?

00;58;56;06 - 00;59;16;25

Steve Koh

The blood relationship, the brotherly relationship. All the brother had to do was show his face at the congressional hearing and potentially decides to flip back despite the sworn affidavit, in fact, that the sworn affidavit is a perfect example. Also, a sworn affidavit. If you, swear that out and then you say something else in front of Congress, you perjured yourself.

00;59;16;25 - 00;59;41;11

Steve Koh

There's all these penalties, potentially, but it doesn't matter. All of a sudden, the contemporary American legal system, Congress, none of that matters. All that matters is the relationship with the family, the relationship with the brother that cuts through everything else. And and again, it's just the kind of deep notion of justice in that world that exists and really stands up in the face of the modern legal system that we talk about all the time in our scholarship, our teaching.

00;59;41;13 - 00;59;44;21

Jonathan Hafetz

It's great to point that out because the brother just shows up, doesn't say anything. He doesn't.

00;59;44;21 - 00;59;45;15

Steve Koh

Say anything. Right.

00;59;45;16 - 01;00;03;04

Jonathan Hafetz

You mean from Sicily? They can't get it right. He's too protected. He's too. They can't get in there. But he shows up, says nothing, looks at him and he. Just as you said. Pant angrily flips, and then he's just backpedaling on his own testimony and. Right. I think it's really interesting actually. And just to bring in like Tom Hagen again after that's done right.

01;00;03;07 - 01;00;30;03

Jonathan Hafetz

Hagan visited him in prison. Right. They go for this walk, right? And he basically tells them back in the old days, like the pre-modern Roman days. Right. What what should have been fun. Yeah. If he, like, basically suggesting he should, you know, kill himself and his family will be taken care of and so that they find, you know, while he's in witness protection, they go in, they find him, he slit his wrists in the bathtub.

01;00;30;03 - 01;00;44;18

Jonathan Hafetz

So they he they make this sort of deal outside of these, you know, formal mechanisms of sort of pre-modern code. Right? He says, you know, when in a situation like this, if you just, you know, you kill yourself, we will take care of your family. And that's sort of like the transaction.

01;00;44;20 - 01;01;06;26

Steve Koh

Yeah. And what's also fascinating about that conversation is it's happened with Tom Hagen while Pentangle is in federal custody, I guess, or whatever you would call it. And presumably it's attorney client privilege. Hagen's there as the lawyer. So they're able to have that conversation and Higgins able to enter that space because of his singular abilities as a lawyer to see his client.

01;01;06;28 - 01;01;15;28

Steve Koh

And presumably, while maybe it's being recorded, who knows whether they're in a federal facility. But that's again where the dovetailing of the traditional and the modern intersect.

01;01;16;01 - 01;01;19;15

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah, totally. Well, they do they I go for a walk in the yard and, you know. Right.

01;01;19;15 - 01;01;20;03

Steve Koh

Exactly right.

01;01;20;03 - 01;01;39;10

Jonathan Hafetz

I don't think I, I probably a bad time. The surveillance capabilities weren't there. Right. So. Right. Yeah. They go for this. Well but you're right. He can gets in and he can delivers the message. And nothing's stated expressly. It's all done through that sort of metaphor. So one of those areas where they send him in to kind of bridge the gap between the modern and the pre-modern.

01;01;39;12 - 01;02;00;11

Steve Koh

It's so it's so fascinating. I mean, one of the things I love about this film is that every time I watch it, there's something else in there, and it's one of my most beloved, teachers in high school. He has a PhD in music. He told me that the difference between a true masterpiece of music and a piece that's merely good is a true masterpiece.

01;02;00;11 - 01;02;19;08

Steve Koh

You look down on it as if it's water. It has infinite depth. You can never see to the bottom, whereas the piece that's good, but not a masterpiece. At some point you can kind of see the bottom of the pool. And what I love about the Godfather, there's so many characters, there's so many themes, there's so much in there that you can always take something new away.

01;02;19;11 - 01;02;35;10

Steve Koh

And as lawyers and for me, as a cultural sociologist, you know, so much of that becomes clear now. And I just love that feeling. And I and I love also knowing that when I'm older, next time I watch it, it could be a year from now. It could be many years from now. There will be something new that emerges.

01;02;35;10 - 01;02;59;24

Steve Koh

I just love that feeling. I also love this film. I'm half Lebanese and I was first introduced to this film actually through that side of the family. My family came to the United States in 1895, my grandmother side in 1905, my grandfather's side, Lebanese Catholics, some Mediterranean Catholics, immigrants to the United States, my great grandfather, for example, came in through Ellis Island.

01;02;59;26 - 01;03;26;20

Steve Koh

So my family has always loved the film, not obviously because of the organized crime element, but because Mediterranean Catholics come into the United States at a turn of the century trying to build a life here, relying on each other and the large networks of families and interrelationships between communities. The food, all of these things really signify a certain time for America and the immigrant story, and that's something that they passed on to me.

01;03;26;20 - 01;03;42;22

Steve Koh

So that's the reason why I've always loved the film. It's always been my favorite film. I love this film. And again, one of the things I love about it is that you can analyze it infinitely deep, you know, so it's it's, it has infinite ability to be rewatched. You take something new. So for me, when I was young, what I took from it was family.

01;03;42;24 - 01;03;46;15

Steve Koh

But now that I'm older, I take from it law and cultural sociology.

01;03;46;17 - 01;04;05;18

Jonathan Hafetz

It just sort of keeps on giving. And the Ellis Island scene is actually explicitly, really, especially explored in two. Right. Where they went with that hero is the young Vito coming in. You're resonating, I'm sure, with your family exact same time. And we're going to see exactly that island that is, I don't know, the down to the tenement area and, you know, right.

01;04;05;18 - 01;04;23;20

Steve Koh

Exactly. That's exactly right. I mean, that's that scene in too. I mean, it's so beautiful and so moving, these immigrants who clearly have very little in their lives from a material perspective, and they're standing up on the boat and just looking at the Statue of Liberty. It's deeply, deeply moving. It's deeply, deeply moving for my family.

01;04;23;23 - 01;04;27;04

Jonathan Hafetz

And even the name, they just stick him with the name Corleone.

01;04;27;05 - 01;04;28;18

Steve Koh

That's right. Yeah, that's exactly right.

01;04;28;19 - 01;04;33;19

Jonathan Hafetz

Because it's either he has a different surname, but he's from there. So it's like you will be Vito Corleone.

01;04;33;21 - 01;04;49;20

Steve Koh

Yeah, that's exactly right. And that happened just to some of my family as well. They got given a different name because they confused the middle name with the last name. So that's just the name that stuck. I mean, so many immigrants from that time have have stories like that and so yeah, so it really, really clarifies so much about the immigrant experience.

01;04;49;23 - 01;05;11;24

Steve Koh

And again, I think this is the reason why the film is so popular is because it's not just a story about crime. It's really a story about so many things. You can read it from a law and justice perspective. We can read it from a family relations perspective. We can read it from an immigrant history perspective, and we could look at it through all sorts of other critical perspectives, tuning out through the lenses of gender or race class.

01;05;11;27 - 01;05;18;08

Steve Koh

You know, there are all sorts of different ways to look at the film and it just really lends itself to that endless amount of analysis.

01;05;18;11 - 01;05;47;07

Jonathan Hafetz

From the immigrant perspective lens. One thing, just to kind of talk about the end of the, you know, three, right where it ends. After Al Pacino my calling, I was never able to break away his daughters killed. It ends up the final shot is some years later, probably. You know, what was current time then? Maybe around, you know, 1990, sitting alone in a chair back in Sicily, like, you know, they've come to America and they've gone back, if you view it from the immigrant perspective, lens coming to America, trying to make it through, you know, go through the organized crime, right?

01;05;47;07 - 01;05;59;28

Jonathan Hafetz

They try to become legitimate. But ultimately, at least for him, he fails in the sense that they kind of winds up in a way, kind of, you know, back where he started. So kind of an interesting lens of something I noticed, like in the last viewings of it.

01;06;00;03 - 01;06;21;07

Steve Koh

Yeah, that's a great point. And it's interesting to think of that through the lens of much of what we talked about, because it does suggest. Well, it's interesting to contrast that with what would have happened if there had been no part two and part three. So at the end of part one, it ends on this unsettling note, because K is looking at Michael through the through the door, but there's an almost a triumphalism at the end for Michael.

01;06;21;07 - 01;06;44;29

Steve Koh

He's become the godfather and he's vanquished his enemies. This is progress. This is a victory. But by the end of part two, we see that Michael's coldness and his kind of ruthlessness has actually struck to the heart of the things that we find sacred in this family, which is the family. And by part three, you feel that the entire you're right, the entire engagement with America as immigrants has failed.

01;06;44;29 - 01;07;09;07

Steve Koh

Maybe that's just something about them. Maybe that says something about America. And I think there's also an even, you could argue, even more spiritual lesson. There's all these different religious and spiritual traditions. Talk about how when you die, nothing goes with you. At the end of your life. It's just you. And, death, a certain time of death is uncertain, and all that matters in that final moment is your spiritual practice.

01;07;09;07 - 01;07;40;17

Steve Koh

And that's it. You know, you're not taking any of your victories with you, any of your wealth, the casino business, the narcotics business, all the judges, all the power that you had. Michael is just alone. He's just alone. And it doesn't matter. So in a way, there's an even deeper story that even transcends being an immigrant, transcends law, transcends of just kind of what are the trappings and attachments that can arise in, in life, and how are they all ultimately impermanent?

01;07;40;23 - 01;07;44;14

Steve Koh

What are we left with at the end other than just ourselves?

01;07;44;16 - 01;07;58;11

Jonathan Hafetz

Steve, it's been so great having you on to talk about The Godfather and Law and Culture, obviously one of our favorite movies and, just bringing out all these important themes, from the film. So thanks so much for coming on the podcast.

01;07;58;13 - 01;07;59;25

Steve Koh

Thanks so much, Jonathan, I love this.