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Jonathan Hafetz

Hi, I'm Jonathan Hafetz, and welcome to Law and Film, a podcast that explores the rich connections between law and film. Law is critical to many films. Films, in turn, tell us a lot about the law. In each episode, we'll examine a film that's noteworthy from a legal perspective. What legal issues does the film explore? What does it get right about the law and what does it get wrong?

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Jonathan Hafetz

How is law important to understanding the film? And what does the film teach us about the law, and about the larger social and cultural context in which it operates? Our film today is Fruitvale Station, a 2013 film written and directed by Ryan Coogler. In his debut feature film, shortly after he graduated from film school. And it stars Michael B Jordan in his first major film role.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Apollonia Diaz and Octavia Spencer. The film is based on the true and tragic story of Oscar Grant, a 22 year old black man who was shot and killed by a Bart officer who, with other officers, was responding to a report of an altercation at the Fruitvale Station in Oakland, California, in the early hours of New Year's Day in 2009.

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Jonathan Hafetz

The film opens with footage of the unarmed Oscar Grant being restrained on the platform by another Bart officer, face down with his hands behind his back when he was shot in the back. The film then traces the last 24 hours of Oscar Grant's life, interspersed with earlier flashbacks. It provides a glimpse into how Oscar Grant lived his friends and family, the challenges he faced along with his hopes and dreams.

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Jonathan Hafetz

The incident on which the film is based provoked outrage and ignited a debate around race, police brutality and civil justice. Oscar Grant's killing in the process sparked one important precursor to the Black Lives Matter movement, which began in 2013. The same year as the films released following the acquittal of George Zimmerman in the fatal shooting of black American teen Trayvon Martin in February 2012.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Our guest today to explore this important film is Michael Pinard. Michael is a professor and the co-director of the Clinical Law Program at the University of Maryland, Frances King Carey School of Law. He currently teaches the Youth Education and Justice Clinic and has taught the Reentry Clinic. He's also taught courses online, social change, policing communities, and the law.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Freddie Gray is Baltimore Past, Present and Moving future, and various criminal law and criminal procedure classes. Professor Pinard has published law review articles and op eds on the criminal process, criminal defense, lawyering, race in the criminal justice system, policing, and the interconnections between the reentry of individuals with criminal records and the myriad consequences of convictions. Professor Pinard has worked to improve the criminal legal system nationally and locally through legislative and policy advocacy, writing, and participating in various working groups and advisory groups.

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Jonathan Hafetz

He's a coeditor in chief of the Clinical Law Review, and the immediate past president of the American Association of Law School, section on Civil Rights. He's also a former president of the Clinical Legal Education Association. Professor Bernard currently serves on the board of directors of the Gault Center, the Leadership Council of the Public Justice Center, and the Maryland Access to Justice Commission.

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Jonathan Hafetz

In 2011, Professor Pinard was honored as a Champion of Change by the white House for his work on behalf of individuals with criminal records. He previously worked as a public defender at the trial and appellate levels in New York, and also taught at numerous law schools, including Yale Law School, where he was a Robert and Cover, a clinical teaching fellow.

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Jonathan Hafetz

And where I first met Michael when I was a student there, working under his supervision and gaining from his valuable advice and counsel. So it's really great to connect with Michael again and to have him on law and film to discuss validation. Welcome, Michael.

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Michel Pinard

Good to see you, Jonathan, and thank you for the invitation. I appreciate seeing you and being here with you.

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Jonathan Hafetz

When did you first see Fruitvale Station and what were your impressions?

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Michel Pinard

I first saw the movie when it came out in 2013, and I saw it in the movie theater. You know, my initial impressions were that it was a very powerful film that resonated really deeply with me. I had followed the case for the film came out. Obviously, this is one of the flash points that we've had that we continue to have.

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Michel Pinard

And so I remember leaving the film really sad and angry, and that was really the impact that it had on me. Back then, when I watched the film again, because I knew we would be talking about it. And, you know, I will say that I think my reaction this time was deeper, and I would say that is still obviously really, really sad, really angry.

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Michel Pinard

But I think even more so for both. And I think part of it is that I have a son now who will be 16 next month. You know, a lot younger when the film came out. And, I think about him as he continues to grow and he's sort of out of the house a bit more. And in just what goes on, you always fearful of those interactions.

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Michel Pinard

And so I think it's sort of gripped me more tightly this time. Seeing it. And also as we get older, I don't know if the same thing, but as I get older, I really appreciate life more. And it's sad when someone loses their life way too early. And I have the benefit of reflecting on where I am in life, and they won't get the experience so of the piece, if you will.

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Michel Pinard

That comes with figuring the life out as you go along. Right. So I actually take these tragedies differently now then, as I have again my my age and my experience. It's just I reflect a bit differently. I won't say it's hard, it's just different. So that's what I took away from watching the film again to prepare for today.

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Jonathan Hafetz

I mean, you really do. It's so poignant how you say that kind of fragility of life and and you see that it's like, you know, as you're as I am, you're older now, right? Ten years ago, a film came out, ten years for the long. And things changed in your life growing up to be able to see like that in that way, as well as what's happened in the world since then.

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Jonathan Hafetz

This was the early flashpoint.

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Michel Pinard

Absolutely right. It's not like to stop anything, right, if you think about it. So. Yeah, absolutely.

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Jonathan Hafetz

You know, building on what you just said, I mean, the film captures how many individuals and especially young black man can kind of get swept up into the criminal justice system and the consequences, the tragic consequences it can have. At the time the film starts, Oscar Grant, I mean, it's Oscar Grant, the third technically, Grant has already spent time in jail.

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Jonathan Hafetz

When the film begins, we learn that later, in a flashback, the real life Oscar Grant served, I think, 16 months for gun possession. But he's tempted to kind of be drawn back in, or the temptations are such that he could be drawn back in, whether it's dealing narcotics and being caught up in the criminal justice system one more time.

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Jonathan Hafetz

After he loses his job at the supermarket for what they call persistent tardiness. He's late a lot. So can you talk about this dynamic in the film? And, you know, based on your experience in reality, representing clients throughout your career?

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Michel Pinard

Well, I think when you grow up black and brown in this country, you live proximate to the criminal legal system. That is, it's always lurking. It's always present. And the ease with which one can interact with the system. If you're black and brown, it's it's like it's right there. And on the other hand, we have a lack of opportunity.

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Michel Pinard

And that's really what I saw in Oscar Grant. That is the lack of opportunity to improve his circumstances and to provide for his daughter. He had a young daughter at the time. And so thinking of how you navigate life and how you're able to live day to day, and how you're able to provide when various opportunities don't exist for you and doors aren't even cracked for you right there, just locked shut, then you have to think of ways to survive.

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Michel Pinard

And certainly that was true and remains true for many of my clients. That is, you shut out of opportunities. You have institutions and systems which always had a criminal legal system is like that's like the endpoint for the various failures of systems and institutions. That's where they deposit, folks. And I think the same place as I see the film.

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Michel Pinard

And as I read about Oscar Grant, I think the same was true for him. The scene where he's begging for his job back, he has no way of making money. And, you know, he actually does not want to do it right. He doesn't even want to sell the narcotics. Really. The marijuana at is picked in the film. He doesn't want to do it.

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Michel Pinard

He actually is talking in the film of giving it up. He's talked to his girlfriend about giving it up, but yet the path he wants to take is shut out. So you see the desperation in him in the film. That really resonated with me as well.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah, it's so sad. He wants so much to work there and he's you can see how personable he is, right? Is absolutely with people. And you know, he wants to be there. He's the door closes and you can see the impact because he's he does he dreams of a better future. I mean that's so clear from the film.

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Jonathan Hafetz

One of the important aspects of the film is the bystander recording. The film starts with the actual footage of Oscar Grant, you know, being pinned down and shot off by the police by a bystander. I think in reality, there were multiple bystanders, and this occurred in early 2009. And since then, cell phone technology has improved dramatically, and phones have grown more vigorous.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Can you talk about the impact that those kind of recordings have played in police violence, misconduct cases, and any of their benefits and limitations?

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Michel Pinard

Well, I think these recordings have been everything. These citizen journalists are heroes because they have allowed the world to see what so many degrees of color have long seen. And they say that to see is to believe. And since we can remember black and brown people who suffered from police violence when not believed. And these citizen journalists are turning the camera on for us to see this.

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Michel Pinard

The injustice, the tragedy, the dehumanization and for the deprivation of life. And so we could think about Walter Scott. We could think about Eric Garner. We could think about Michael Brown, particularly the aftermath of Michael Brown when he just laid there in the street for hours and hours and hours. Obviously, we think about George Floyd, and without these cameras, the folks who were present and would have been screaming and crying, these stories wouldn't be believed by many.

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Michel Pinard

And so that's to me, the power of these citizen journalists. It's sad to say that we can't live without them. Right. It's sad to say that people just won't be believed for for seeing the pain and for feeling the pain as well. So to me, that's the benefit and the limitations, quite honestly, I think have to do with the aftermath.

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Michel Pinard

There's still going to be people who question the video, right? You're going to have the most skeptical people out there say, well, you know, this must be skewed in some way, or you must have edited this in some way. And then even if not, we have the justice system, which is the ultimate limitation. That is, even when it's playing for the world to see.

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Michel Pinard

Certainly the type of justice and punishment, if it is exact. That is not what we see. If if these individuals aren't officers.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah. I mean, it's played such an important role over the last decade, I mean, in documentaries. So multiple unfortunate, horrific instances of police violence thinking back to permitted to the Rodney King. You know, it's just by chance riots happened, recorded people didn't carry around basically video equipment essentially in their pocket like they do now. That's right. It was almost in a sense, like a fluke that that incident, which was so seismic and important, was actually.

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Michel Pinard

No, that's a that's a great point. That's the original. Right? That's the first real instance that we've seen of this documented police violence. I mean, we can go back to the civil rights era 1860s, but in terms of an individual using a camera, that's certainly the first instance that we saw.

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Jonathan Hafetz

And it's played such an important role. But, you know, you talk about, you know, some of the limitations when it hits the criminal justice system. While we're on that point, I the film notes at the conclusion that the Bart officer who shot Oscar Grant, Johannes Lee, was indicted for homicide, murder, involuntary manslaughter. But he was convicted only of involuntary manslaughter.

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Jonathan Hafetz

He claimed he'd mistook his gun for his Taser. He was sentenced to two years in prison. Served only 11 months. And this type of outcome, in which the police are lightly punished or escape punishment altogether, has been repeated in many well-known cases. As you know, there was no charge also in the Oscar Grant case against the other Bart officer and the person who not only restrained Oscar Grant, but the evidence showed at trial struck him in the head and him and caused internal damage.

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Jonathan Hafetz

I mean, they didn't kill him, but it's clear. And so what makes it so difficult to prosecute police violence?

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Michel Pinard

And on that point, you know, I was thinking back to, just two years ago, Daunte Wright in Minnesota, who was killed by then Officer Kim Potter. Same thing. Right. Your claim was that she mistook her going for a Taser. And she received a very similar sentence. I think that it's a complicated question because there are many different factors involved, among which are, again, the dehumanization of life that's not seen as value by the system and by human society.

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Michel Pinard

Right? That is, if we're talking about victims of crime who are disproportionately black and brown. The sad reality is that many don't see them as victims of these two victims or as quote unquote, perfect victims. Because usually what happens is we then hear about every imperfection they've had in life in the aftermath. And if they've gotten in trouble one time as a child, we hear a police chief or a mayor or some other elected official dragged them through the mud.

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Michel Pinard

They're not perfect in a way, not pure in a way. So we have that just, again, the dehumanization of life. And then we also, you know, a country that in terms of our culture, sees law enforcement as heroes, as a good people. That is is hard for many to wrap their heads around the fact that there are bad police officers out there.

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Michel Pinard

Not to say that all officers is bad, but there are some bad police officers out there. Right. Also, we have just racial bias that affects all of this. So we know that reams of studies have found that black boys and black girls are seen as older than what they really are. So we don't offer children the benefit of youth, the indulgence of youth.

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Michel Pinard

So think of like Tamir Rice with 12 years old. But it's seen and interpreted as much bigger and older. So think about the biases that affect all of this. And then I remember this I remember this this came up years and years and years and years ago in New York. I remember talking to a colleague back in the 90s about this, when I really had just finished law school, and he was just explaining how, because of all of this, if you think about a child like murder, it is hard for a jury.

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Michel Pinard

Some jurors, to grasp that an officer could have intended to do something. It's always a quote unquote, spur of the moment mistake. Oh, I thought it was a Taser, but it's a real gun or some other quote unquote, mitigation they see. So, you know, I think this is seen as very, very hard cases. And it's proved I mean, they've they've proved to be really, really hard cases.

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Michel Pinard

Right. And so, yeah, I think there are a variety of reasons of why this is so. But what it boils down to is that I think our justice system does not see these victims as quote unquote, whole victims. And I think too many of us don't see them as whole victims. And I think, you know, obviously, race and intersectionality at the heart of that.

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Jonathan Hafetz

It's interesting you talk about the idea and the need for the victim to be perfect. One of the things that I found especially moving and powerful about the film was an Oscar Grant was not depicted as perfect, right? He was flawed in some personal respects. His girlfriend lied about losing his job right? His family and explosive temper. And yet he was sympathetic.

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Jonathan Hafetz

I mean, they may have appeared sympathetic. He was devoted to his. Was a devoted father to his four year old daughter, kind to strangers, even to a people that we see run over by a cop. Any of these dreams of of a better life. So to me, one of the really powerful things in the film is that they made him out to be not a perfect individual, but more of a layered individual.

00;17;06;06 - 00;17;16;27

Jonathan Hafetz

And yet it was still so horrific what what happened to him. And I don't know if the me in the film that made the film even more powerful to the fact that he was not an angel.

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Michel Pinard

And who among us was an angel? Exactly right. I mean, that's the thing that is. He was the guy who had some flaws. And we all aspire to be good people. And all of us have flaws. So I didn't really see him as different. You know, he had his struggles in life. We talked about some reasons for the show.

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Michel Pinard

He has some struggles in life. And again, none of us is perfect. And none of us deserve the treatment that he received. But those police officers. So I agree with you in terms of the humanity. I mean, that's really to me, the display of humanity that was shown about him in the film. And I agree with you that it's a very sort of powerful takeaway.

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Michel Pinard

And again, that gets back to, you know, frequently when there's a black man, a black woman who's killed by the police, that's literally they didn't watch out any sort of thing that they would that they've done in the past. That's less than perfect, as if that's somehow justification for their life being taken. I mean, literally, that really gets to that.

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Michel Pinard

And interesting you mention that, Jonathan, because there was another scene in the film that it's a millisecond, but it really gripped me as well. So there's a scene where they're in San Francisco. This is that out on New Year's. And his girlfriend and one of her friends needs to use a restroom. And so Michael Jordan playing us. Grant begs this restaurant owner.

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Michel Pinard

Restaurant had to be closed. There's a restaurant in front of a restaurant. The restaurant's closed. Begs the owner to let his girlfriend and her friend to use the restroom. During the scene, there's a young white couple. They walk in front of the restaurant as well. They've been recently married. The wife also needs to use the restroom. And Michael B Jordan again saying, as Grant begs the restaurant owner to let this additional person in.

00;19;10;12 - 00;19;37;12

Michel Pinard

So you have Michael B Jordan playing Oscar Grant, and it's all the white act. I don't remember his name. And Michael B Jordan admires the ring, the wedding ring that he saw on the young lady. And he just strikes up a friendly conversation with this person who just really waiting for the significant others, come out. And the white man tells him that a few years earlier, he had stolen credit cards to pay for the wedding.

00;19;37;14 - 00;20;07;17

Michel Pinard

And I thought that was such a powerful moment in this film, because this white man is also flawed. This white man committed a crime and felt free enough to tell somebody about it. Right. Because there are no repercussions, if you will, of sharing this with a total stranger. And this white individual didn't live life in fear of being killed by law enforcement, being abused by law enforcement.

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Michel Pinard

And so I just thought that that was a really powerful and gets to what exactly we're talking about is who is seen as perfect and who's seen is not.

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Jonathan Hafetz

I'm so glad you mentioned that. He is such a powerful and important, the way you know Oscar and helps him. His wife is pregnant at the time, right? It's just right. That's right. And what about the credit card? It's a mistake. And he's fraud, but he doesn't pay for it. The white guy doesn't pay for it in the same way.

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Jonathan Hafetz

It doesn't derail his life. And he's back now. He's. He's clearly middle class. Upper middle class, right? Somewhat affluent. His wife's having a baby and he should have gone on. And that kind of thing would be very differently if it happened to, like, the Michael B Jordan character.

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Michel Pinard

Absolutely. No doubt. No doubt about it.

00;20;44;29 - 00;21;11;08

Jonathan Hafetz

Relatedly, Oscar Grant dies partly because of a chain of coincidences, and the film plays this up partly to sharpen the drama. Mainly, he takes his mother's advice to ride the Bart into, San Francisco on New Year's Eve rather than drive so you don't have issues around drinking. He then, by chance, runs into someone on the Bart who we'd had an altercation with previously, which triggers the fight that triggers the police activity.

00;21;11;10 - 00;21;36;13

Jonathan Hafetz

So there's something about this that's universal, right? Life can change in a flash for anyone. You can imagine a film where they drive instead of taking the bar, there's a drunk driving accident or something like that. So every decision. Right? But I think what the film suggests and what we've been talking about is this is especially true for a young black male, and especially true with the police, where something like that can just escalate into a fatal encounter.

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Jonathan Hafetz

And that to me is, you know, I think really powerful in the film. I know what your thoughts are.

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Michel Pinard

Can I back up a little bit because in that scene, I wonder whether his mother, in terms of advising him not to drive. I wonder whether she is more afraid of him drinking a bit too much and getting into an accident, or maybe drinking a bit too much and being pulled over by law enforcement. That can result in a very negative interaction.

00;22;05;04 - 00;22;29;17

Michel Pinard

And I say that because at the beginning of the film, there's a scene where he's driving and he's talking to his mother on his cell phone and she asks him if he has the earpiece in ear while he's driving. And again, one could say she's afraid of him being a distracted driver and causing harm to himself or someone else.

00;22;29;19 - 00;22;52;13

Michel Pinard

Another can say she's afraid, but if he doesn't have his earpiece on, that will be an additional reason for law enforcement to pull him over. And she's scared to death of her son being pulled over for anything, because she knows that the more you interact with law enforcement, the greater the chances are of you being harmed or killed.

00;22;52;15 - 00;23;17;02

Michel Pinard

So that's how I actually looked at those scenes in a way. And I do think that gets to your question, just about the sort of all it takes is a flash for a life to be taken away. And I do think that that's particularly true for black and brown folks, particularly when you're dealing with law enforcement. And I think that many of the tragedies we have seen make that lesson abundantly clear, as well as the tragedies that we don't see.

00;23;17;04 - 00;23;36;17

Michel Pinard

That is in terms of the news coverage, it's about the people who were killed or really, really that grievously harmed. But what about the other interactions that don't make it to that threshold of being widely covered, that are also abusive in so many different ways as well? So, yes, I do think it's the case that certainly life is precious for all.

00;23;36;20 - 00;24;00;22

Michel Pinard

But we have enough data out there across multiple systems. I mean, if you just deal with the toxic stress of being poor and of color in this country, it reduces your life expectancy dramatically. The Washington Post yesterday reported on two reports that came out of the medical field about. It was like 1.6 million excess deaths of black people.

00;24;00;22 - 00;24;18;22

Michel Pinard

That is, don't live as long as white people for a variety of reasons, including mass incarceration. So life for black folks in this country, for brown folks in this country, is especially fleeting. And just in the law enforcement police violence context, the film also drives home that lesson as well.

00;24;18;24 - 00;24;39;28

Jonathan Hafetz

Fantastic point. And you'll be honest, I saw it as mother worrying. Yeah. Don't want to be our driver. I didn't pick up on that aspect. I mean, why is it not just worrying? Because of the risk of of, you know, any parent doesn't want their kid to drink and drive, you know, go out on New Year's Eve. But the fact of the being pulled over because I was driving while black or brown as another reason.

00;24;40;03 - 00;24;57;25

Jonathan Hafetz

And there is that scene in the beginning with the earpiece. Right. Which really a powerful echo or foreshadowing where she's yelling and put your aperture earpiece on. And you're saying we joined, struggling to get this like, you know, circa 2009? Yes. Right. And that is. Yeah.

00;24;57;27 - 00;25;11;26

Michel Pinard

And that's what we get to when we talk about the talk that we have to give to our children. You know, again, my son is about to be 16. I mean, I've been giving him to talk since. I know he might have been 6 or 7. And it's talk begins in school. Is it may not even be with law enforcement.

00;25;11;27 - 00;25;36;20

Michel Pinard

The talk is you can't do it in school because your teachers will look at you first and you'll get in trouble first. We then graduate to talking about police where I'm now with him because again, he's now he's out. More like he's hanging out more. So. So there's just this is fear that if you if you do something, if you give any reason whatsoever, no matter how innocuous you are now in a really, really bad spot.

00;25;36;23 - 00;25;59;06

Michel Pinard

And it's really sad because again, it gets back to. And Chris heading to Georgetown writes about normal adolescent behavior and how black children all have the benefit of it because you criminalize, you know, for the way you dress for, you know, if your voice is too, that I mean, whatever it is and stuff, the kids are normally allowed to do black boys and black girls in particular, what the studies show.

00;25;59;06 - 00;26;25;02

Michel Pinard

Again, I'm not able to indulge the youth in that way. And so I do think, well, I know that it causes us to almost want our kids to be robots, you know, and in ways that are really, really unfair because you have to walk a straight path. I remember reading some literature a few years ago, kids in Chicago, talking about strategies to avoid police, you know, having to wear backpacks and glasses to make it look like you're in school.

00;26;25;03 - 00;26;36;23

Michel Pinard

Like literally the survival techniques go that deep. And so, yeah, that's how I saw those two things. There's literally you have to survive.

00;26;36;26 - 00;26;41;17

Jonathan Hafetz

And she has the most to make him safe. Avoid the police right. Everything still ends up.

00;26;41;17 - 00;26;44;16

Michel Pinard

Everything situation. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

00;26;44;19 - 00;27;00;21

Jonathan Hafetz

What's changed, if anything, in the decades since the film was released or the 15 years since Oscar Grant was killed, we've talked about the documentary of police violence. But anything else in terms of its treatment by the justice system and how it's viewed by society?

00;27;00;27 - 00;27;30;22

Michel Pinard

Well, sure. I think that you mentioned the Black Lives Matter movement. We talked about George Floyd. Obviously. I think we all recognize that that was an additional sort of flashpoint, sort of international attention to police violence in this country, a broader sort of recognition, if you will, within this country. The diversity of advocates who are calling out these injustices has increased a lot, I think, over the past 15 years.

00;27;30;26 - 00;28;03;13

Michel Pinard

And, you know, at the state level, we've had in some states, we've had some certainly some responses, some legislative responses to abusive policing in terms of tactics that police officers can use or not use the trainings that they have to receive. And, you know, we can debate the impact. But the point is, we do see some responses, both in communities as broadly conceived as well as within some legislative spaces, some policy spaces that were either nonexistent or certainly certainly not the volume level that that we have now.

00;28;03;13 - 00;28;29;16

Michel Pinard

So this just a broader understanding, if you will, of police violence, recognizing that police violence and bad policing is a reality and also recognizing the need to really rethink policing in a very, very strenuous way. And I will say it's interesting, if you think about just abolition and the conversations around abolition and defunding pretty much after George Floyd hit the mainstream.

00;28;29;18 - 00;28;48;14

Michel Pinard

And that's something abolitionism and defunding those movements have always existed. Let's be clear. But in terms of that, entering the consciousness of decision makers, of community members of impacted populations, that that's something that is something that I don't think we saw 15 years ago.

00;28;48;17 - 00;29;11;00

Jonathan Hafetz

No, certainly not. And I'm thinking back when we worked together, I worked in student clinic. You were supervising prison clinic, right? Yeah. We tried, you know, we focused on that. We focused on, well, police violence, overpolicing of certain communities. And it was certainly an issue. There was a lot written about it. We saw it with the clients that we were working with, but it hadn't reached mainstream media consciousness like it is today.

00;29;11;00 - 00;29;14;02

Jonathan Hafetz

And I think especially probably after George Floyd.

00;29;14;04 - 00;29;31;13

Michel Pinard

Students are coming to law school now saying, teach me how to abolish. Right? Literally, right. So almost we have to catch up with them in some ways, like, okay, how do we even have these conversations with now when our law school is like, what does it even mean in clinical education? Now if we're just quote unquote tinkering on the edges, right.

00;29;31;13 - 00;29;53;18

Michel Pinard

So yeah, there's more of this sort of collective demand, if you will. And so, yeah, it's to your point, John, it's interesting you say that because the level of advocacy that I see now in terms of the breadth of this is, again, it's always been there, but just in terms of the breadth of it, it makes me look back and say, wow, those are the steps we need to take to get to where we are now.

00;29;53;21 - 00;30;01;13

Michel Pinard

But certainly to your point, Jonathan, in terms of the mainstream advocacy is something that we didn't really envision 25 years ago.

00;30;01;15 - 00;30;10;25

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah, it's remarkable, even though there's like such a long way to go. So, Michael, was there anything else that struck you about the film in terms of, for example, the way it was shot?

00;30;10;28 - 00;30;31;10

Michel Pinard

So the scene in the supermarket and we talked about the supermarket scene earlier where he went back to plead for his job back. And at various moments in that scene, this is Michael Jordan. He is shot from the back. So literally the camera is following him, walking around the store in the aisles. I took it as if he's being civil.

00;30;31;12 - 00;30;45;07

Michel Pinard

It could be a store security officer. It could be an armed guard who also follow customers around, particularly customers of color around the store. And so there was something about the way that was shot that made me see him being surveilled.

00;30;45;09 - 00;30;52;12

Jonathan Hafetz

Interesting. The way of tracked him, because it really did track him closely as he moved around. In that sense, I guess Ryan Coogler would be in the position.

00;30;52;19 - 00;30;57;10

Michel Pinard

Yes, absolutely. Surveillance, as always on, you always watched.

00;30;57;12 - 00;31;22;08

Jonathan Hafetz

So when Ryan Coogler made this film, he was a recent film graduate. He had been a student at USC when Oscar Grant was shot in 2009. He had made a couple of short films when this was his first feature film. And he said he said publicly that he identified with Oscar Grant the same age, with the same close friends, looked like his friends included, very personal for and made a very powerful movie.

00;31;22;15 - 00;31;34;25

Jonathan Hafetz

Have you been on set with him at the time that that point? Your experience veteran criminal defense lawyer and worked on legal and policy issues around police violence, incarceration? Any suggestions you might have offered to him?

00;31;34;27 - 00;32;06;25

Michel Pinard

Well, if I felt comfortable enough to offer a suggestion to a train filmmaker, this one thing I would have suggested be added and it could have been one. The Oscar Grant had dropped out of high school in the 10th grade and earned his G.E.D. when he was in jail. He was incarcerated. And so when we talk about various systems and institutions of both exclusion and oppression, I wonder how he was served by the educational system or again, he dropped out in seventh grade.

00;32;06;28 - 00;32;32;19

Michel Pinard

And we also know that when a student drops out of school, the chances of interacting with the criminal legal system in juvenile legal system increases substantially. So I thought, I mean, it's a very I think a major point, a minor point that it could have been one line, but just something about that experience. I thought there was something missing from the film.

00;32;32;19 - 00;32;44;28

Michel Pinard

For me, it was that it just tells me that he was not served well in so many different ways, like so many other countless people are. And I just think that education track is important.

00;32;45;00 - 00;32;49;29

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah, it's a small thing that could have been added, but a much larger piece of the puzzle if you.

00;32;50;00 - 00;32;55;06

Michel Pinard

Just because it also gets to the lack of opportunity, experience, etc.. So yeah.

00;32;55;09 - 00;33;21;29

Jonathan Hafetz

Right. I mean, why were these only these jobs open to him and why, you know, as you mentioned before, why unlike the white guy that he meets was white, pregnant, needs this bathroom who stole credit cards and have other opportunities right. Education system in part so. Right. And what about today. Right. Since since the since Fruitvale Station, you know, Ryan Coogler has gone on to superstardom like the most prominent black American director, Michael B Jordan.

00;33;22;01 - 00;33;39;27

Jonathan Hafetz

Superstar. If they were going to team up for another movie about the criminal justice system, is there anything you would suggest they cover? Or then put another way? What's the what's the film you think most needs to be made about police violence and the justice system and all the other issues we've been talking about.

00;33;40;00 - 00;34;19;25

Michel Pinard

Speaking as a non filmmaker, I have a couple of thoughts. One is and it gets back to what I said about education. I think that a film or a story that needs to be told in a film is really about school to prison pipeline, about the connection between for too many black and brown children, the intimate relationship between the educational setting and the juvenile legal system, criminal legal system, the ways in which they're criminalized in schools, to police officers roaming the hallways, to just sort of reflexive disciplinary practices that have no participant anything.

00;34;20;02 - 00;34;41;07

Michel Pinard

Remove kids from school, like from anything. We talk about normal adolescent behavior, anything. So, you know, and then how that connects to just involvement in the criminal legal system and perhaps there's police violence involved. And we could define violence very, very broadly. But I think that's a film that should be made. And, you know, to me that could be a film that's based on a real situation.

00;34;41;08 - 00;34;57;04

Michel Pinard

So let me not say fiction, but it could be based on a real story, a real situation. Because I do wonder, you know, we talked about, you know, many of the individuals who have suffered in a way in which we've seen suffer on video. I'm just wondering what the educational path was, you know, in some ways. And again, I see that with Oscar Grant.

00;34;57;04 - 00;35;19;28

Michel Pinard

So that's what stuck out to me. But I could also be a documentary as well. Right. So I think Ryan Coogler with his chops, you know, sometimes a documentary could be certainly as powerful. And so it could be telling a story of a particular person and the life of that person. So, for instance, you know, it could be like Michael Brown, right, who was 18 years old, I believe, at the time that he was, was killed.

00;35;19;28 - 00;35;43;03

Michel Pinard

But, you know, I often wonder what was his life story and how would that life story be reflected on film? Oh, you could pick any number of people, pick a Tamir Rice. But I think telling the story of someone who's literally a child is would also be something that I think needs to be told them. Again, the purpose of the medium is to get the story out to the masses.

00;35;43;03 - 00;35;47;04

Michel Pinard

And so I just think that's a another story that could be told.

00;35;47;07 - 00;35;56;29

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah, it's such an important story. And by the time you get to the point you're at in frustration with Oscar Grant, so much of happened that the doors you talk about that have been closed off in a way.

00;35;57;01 - 00;36;02;06

Michel Pinard

And he was so young. Think about that. I mean, he was basically a child himself too.

00;36;02;08 - 00;36;22;04

Jonathan Hafetz

Tragic, right? Yeah. You're saying before you reflect now back on what happened without that night, he be 36 now and middle aged family would kid would be a grown up. But just like we just cut short and it's. Well Michael, it's been great talking to you about Fruitvale Station. Would you recommend that people see this film if they haven't seen it?

00;36;22;06 - 00;36;45;02

Michel Pinard

Oh, absolutely. It's a great film. Tells the story in a very compelling way. It's very gripping. And the different narratives. You have obviously the law enforcement angle. You've got the criminal legal system and just the relationship he has with his mother, some very, very powerful scenes with his mom in the film, the relationship he has with his girlfriend, a relationship he has with extended family.

00;36;45;02 - 00;36;55;26

Michel Pinard

Then obviously, you know, perhaps the most precious relationship is the one with his little daughter. So it's a very tight script, very tight film. And, very, very powerful, very, very good.

00;36;55;28 - 00;37;15;15

Jonathan Hafetz

You mentioned the daughter, and that's the last moment of his life when he's fading from consciousness is in the hospital. They're trying to save him every shot. That's right. It's sort of like a picture of him and his daughter hugging. Yeah. So many powerful scenes. Can I just ask you about one more scene? The one with his mother in the prison when he's in prison, and she goes in to see him?

00;37;15;15 - 00;37;26;00

Jonathan Hafetz

And that's a really powerful scene, and there's some real tension to between them. Yeah. If you could just talk a little bit about that and things you've seen over the years, I thought that was a quite a gripping scene.

00;37;26;02 - 00;37;54;02

Michel Pinard

You know, it's interesting because I mean, you all know, right, that when people are incarcerated over time, most of the people in their lives fade away. People move on. That's one of the harsh realities. People have their own lives to live. And it's, I think, often the case that the one person who often remains is a parent. And the scene you're talking about, his mom says, look, I can't see you in here again.

00;37;54;05 - 00;38;10;28

Michel Pinard

And she says, I'll see you when you come out. And he is crestfallen and angry and upset. You can't believe it. And I'm thinking, this is the one person whose life was really there for him in that way. His daughter is really, really young at that point. She's a toddler since. Right? So she can't understand what the situation is about.

00;38;10;28 - 00;38;31;14

Michel Pinard

She doesn't even know he's incarcerated, right? She thinks he's away. And obviously he doesn't want his child to see him, which is also very, very common. Who wants to bring your child to that environment to see them in that state? And as she's walking away facing the camera, he's really upset and he's being literally physically handled by some correctional officers.

00;38;31;16 - 00;38;55;18

Michel Pinard

And, but just to me show the isolation and loneliness of incarceration. Now I will say that obviously the love remains. And when he's out again, the film is going back and forth, but they're very close and very, very tight. He wants to celebrate her birthday, and he wants to celebrate in a big way. In part, I'm thinking, because the year before he was incarcerated on her birthday.

00;38;55;20 - 00;39;24;14

Michel Pinard

And so in one of the last scenes of the film, after he's been shot and his mom and his friends are at the hospital, and again, as you stated earlier, Jonathan, his mother is the one who suggested to him that he take the train into San Francisco to celebrate New Year's rather than drive. And what she said at the end of the film, as her son is dying in this hospital room, she says, this is a quote.

00;39;24;17 - 00;40;00;10

Michel Pinard

I told him to take the train. I didn't know they would hurt my baby. And the my baby part really, really held me close. Because no matter how old her son was, I mean, he was now a very young man who was a parent himself. And no matter how much worry or stress she had in her life over him, despite the fact that she had to tell him a year earlier that I cannot see you in here anymore, and I'm going to have to walk away from you through it all.

00;40;00;12 - 00;40;24;10

Michel Pinard

He's not only her son. He's her baby. And what's more precious than a baby? Nothing. So that seemed, for all those reasons. That scene was so powerful. An angel. Because I cannot imagine how hard it was for her to walk away from him and turn her back on him, like what was in her that filled up so much as she said, this is too much for me.

00;40;24;12 - 00;40;26;21

Michel Pinard

So very, very powerful scene.

00;40;26;23 - 00;40;44;18

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah, because there's so much love that I just said, and you can see it at the end. So she's walking out of a sense, out of love or whatever, but it's, Yeah, I mean, it is. It's such a it's a gripping scene in that that moment, that line at the end is so poignant. Yeah. Michael, it's been so great talking to you about this film.

00;40;44;20 - 00;41;00;22

Jonathan Hafetz

Fruitvale Station, fantastic film, so relevant. Relevant when it was made and as relevant, if not more relevant today after all that's happened in the last decade. It's available for streaming for people who want to watch it. So again, Michael, it's been great to have you on and great to chat with you.

00;41;00;24 - 00;41;04;16

Michel Pinard

It's always great to see you, Jonathan, and thank you for having me. I'm excited about this podcast.