00;00;02;20 - 00;00;35;07

Jonathan Hafetz

Hi, I'm Jonathan Hafetz and welcome to Law on Film, a podcast that explores the rich connections between law and film. Law is critical to many films. Film, in turn, tells us a lot about the law. In each episode, we'll examine a film that is noteworthy from a legal perspective. What legal issues does the film explore? What does it get right about the law and what does it get wrong?

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Jonathan Hafetz

How is law important to understanding the film? And what does the film teach us about the law, and about the larger social and cultural context in which the law is embedded? Our film today is The Trial of the Chicago seven, a 2020 dramatization of the trial of a group of anti-Vietnam War protesters for inciting riots at the 1968 Democratic National Convention in Chicago.

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Jonathan Hafetz

The defendants, originally eight, included prominent figures of the era, including Abbie Hoffman, Jerry Rubin, Tom Hayden, Rennie Davis, Dave Dellinger, and Bobby Seale. The film was written and directed by Aaron Sorkin and features an outstanding ensemble cast, including Sacha Baron Cohen, Jeremy Strong, Eddie Redmayne, Yahya Abdul-Mateen, the second, Joseph Gordon-Levitt, Mark Rylance, and Frank Langella, with a great cameo by Michael Keaton.

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Jonathan Hafetz

The film is nominated for numerous awards. The protests at the DNC and the subsequent trial of the Chicago Seven was a seminal event of the period, one whose implications still reverberate today. We're very fortunate today to have as our guest, Jerry Lefcourt. Jerry is recognized as one of the country's foremost criminal defense attorneys. In his 40 years practicing law, his clients have spanned the spectrum from Yippie founder Abbie Hoffman and Black Panther leaders to Drexel Burnham Lambert, securities trader Bruce Newberg, real estate mogul Harry Helmsley, actor Russell Crowe, New York State Assembly Speaker Mel Miller, your state assemblyman and Brooklyn Democratic leader.

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Jonathan Hafetz

You know, Lopez and hip hop music promoter and Murder Inc. record label had Irv Gotti. Jerry has a distinguished career in public service as well. He recently completed over 20 years service as speaker of the New York State Assembly's designee to the Statewide Commission on Judicial Nominations, which committee recommends to the governor's slate of candidates for the New York Court of Appeals, state's highest court currently serves on the Magistrate Selection Committee of the Southern District of New York.

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Jonathan Hafetz

He's a past president of the Foundation for Criminal Justice of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, former chair of the Criminal Advocacy Committee of the Association of the bar of the City of New of New York. Past president of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, and past president of the New York Criminal Bar Association. He's been recognized in New York Magazine survey of outstanding practitioners, and has also been recognized by Super Lawyers every year since 2006 as among New York City's finest criminal defense lawyers.

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Jonathan Hafetz

He has received numerous additional accolades for his lifelong work as a tireless advocate for the rights of criminal defendants, and we're very fortunate to have him here as a guest today on law and film, as Jerry was one of the original defense attorneys in the Chicago seven case and in other notable cases at the time, including the defense of the Black Panther Party members at the 1970 trial.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Jerry, welcome.

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Gerald Lefcourt

Thank you. Good to be here.

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Jonathan Hafetz

So I want to start by having you talk a little bit about your connection to the Chicago seven case and the other cases at that time. What was your role? How were you involved?

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Gerald Lefcourt

Well, 1968 was probably what are the wildest years in our country's history. Not only did we have assassinations of Martin Luther King and Robert Kennedy. We had the Democratic National Committee commission and the protests around that. And also, one of the things that happened was I was trying to form a union of lawyers at the Legal Aid Society, and after we had three organizational meetings, they fired, saying it would be unethical for lawyers to be in a union because their job was to represent their clients, not society in general.

00;04;31;15 - 00;05;02;22

Gerald Lefcourt

So when I was fired, the New York Times wrote a story on it and made me look to be a hero. Quite frankly. And unbeknownst to me, that was read by somebody who called me on the phone and said, hey, I'm Abbie, and that was Abbie Hoffman in the beginning of wild Years ahead. Abbie had been arrested at the Chicago Democratic National Committee demonstrations.

00;05;02;24 - 00;05;32;10

Gerald Lefcourt

He had another case of demonstration case out of Columbia University. And he said to me on the phone, I have a doctor and a dentist, but what I really need is a lawyer. And so that began my relationship with Abbie, which went on for 20 more years. At the time, he was wanted on bench warrants in Chicago. So I arranged with the prosecutors to surrender him.

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Gerald Lefcourt

And when we flew into Chicago, police boarded the plane. I had already announced, we're coming to voluntary surrender. But they, of course, wanted to make a big press day out of it, boarded the plane and took him off, and placed him under arrest. We appeared in two different courts that were necessary in order to get a bail.

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Gerald Lefcourt

And at the end of a very long day, we were sitting outside a precinct where his belongings were kept, and two guys in trench coats come over and they have a subpoena. But Albert Hoffman with the House un-American Activities Committee. And so it began. The House un-American Activities Committee was politically dragging before it, activists who were leaders in the protests at the Democratic National Committee meetings in August of 1968 and subpoenaed Abbie for hearings in October of 68.

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Gerald Lefcourt

The House un-American activity hearings were very important because they really informed what would happen with the Chicago eight indictment, which came a few months, six months later, in October of 68. Abbie and others appeared before Congress's House un-American Activities Committee, which had a sordid history of political repression and suppression of First Amendment rights, going all the way back to the era of the Rosenbergs.

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Gerald Lefcourt

So we appeared in Washington at the House un-American Activities Committee. And also subpoenaed were Tom Hayden, Jerry Rubin, David Dellinger, and, Rennie Davis. Those names, of course, would become defendants six eight months later in the Chicago eight case. So the House un-American activities was the precursor and really informed what the government would do once the Republicans took power.

00;07;51;01 - 00;08;05;29

Gerald Lefcourt

And Nixon was elected in 1968. In January of 69, he appointed John Mitchell, Attorney General, and by April, the Chicago Eight were indicted.

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Jonathan Hafetz

The film discusses this context a little bit doesn't leaves out the House un-American Activities Committee, which is a really interesting background and helps inform the context. But the way the film describes it is right. John Mitchell comes in, the former A.G. Ramsey Clark from the Johnson administration is out and Mitchell decides to go after the Chicago eight.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Right, Denny? Because according to the film, he has a kind of grievance with Ramsey Clark, almost like a personal grievance because Ramsey Clark didn't resign early enough, as was customary, in the transition between administrations and the way the film describes it is Palmer really pushed the indictment and the attorney general, or the U.S. attorney for Chicago, Thomas Farren, and then the lawyer who tried the case, Richard Schultz.

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Jonathan Hafetz

We're a little bit unwilling participants, especially Richard Schultz.

00;09;03;21 - 00;09;39;12

Gerald Lefcourt

So I don't think anything of that is true. I think what was clear was Nixon was going after his enemies. The Chosen Eight were significant because they all represented parts of the antiwar and civil rights movement. They didn't have a connection necessarily to each other. For instance, Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin were Yippies. They were cultural revolutionaries using their terms.

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Gerald Lefcourt

Tom Hayden and Rennie Davis were intellectual leftists. Students were democratic. Society was formed by them and nurtured by them on every school campus in the country. Just about. And then there was Dave Dellinger, who'd come from the pacifist group where church people and all kinds of intellectuals had become opposed to the war. And, of course, Martin Luther King joined his civil rights struggles with antiwar actions.

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Gerald Lefcourt

And that brought in black liberation groups and civil rights groups of all kind. These were Nixon's enemies. He was conducting the war and expanding it, and they were opposing him. I don't think it had anything to do with a debate between Mitchell and Ramsey Clark. I've spoken to Ramsey over the years about all this. I think it had to do with what the House un-American Activities Committee really informed them about.

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Gerald Lefcourt

This was the opposition liberal up opposition to the war in Vietnam and to the civil rights struggle that.

00;10;56;21 - 00;11;16;12

Jonathan Hafetz

Ramsey Clark didn't testify. Right. At least on, like a voir dire at the trial. But the testimony, as I understand it, that he gave was very different, that, in the in, in real life was very different in the film. In the film, he, essentially says this is a, you know, politically motivated prosecution by Mitchell.

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Gerald Lefcourt

Well, you know, he is said publicly and he said there, too, that he didn't think that it was worthy of a prosecution, that I mean, this was not a conspiracy in any way. This group, these people never met together. This was just a joint effort, a protest, anti-war protests and civil rights protest. There's nothing to do with crossing state lines to incite a riot that was crossing state lines to protest the war effort, which was going to be expanded under Hubert Humphrey.

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Gerald Lefcourt

He was the chosen nominee.

00;11;58;06 - 00;12;05;04

Jonathan Hafetz

Can you tell us a little bit about the defense team and how that was formed, and the role of the different attorneys?

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Gerald Lefcourt

Well, William, counselor and I were both lawyers for some of the defendants. We had him, Dave Dellinger, and, we represented them during the House un-American Activities Committee hearings 6 or 8 months earlier. And it was about the same subjects. As part of those hearings. The American Civil Liberties Union were present and brought a lawsuit against the committee, which, of course, failed.

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Gerald Lefcourt

And so there was a building, of lawyers fighting not only us, but representing Abbie Day and the others. Tom Hayden, who had been involved in protests, and particularly there were riots in Newark, after Martin Luther King was assassinated and Tom Hayden met Lenny Wineglass, who was in new Jersey. Lawyer. Excellent lawyer, and he wanted Leonard to represent him once the indictment came.

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Gerald Lefcourt

So some of us had been involved before, and it just continued.

00;13;25;10 - 00;13;46;08

Jonathan Hafetz

Well, we know it was the Chicago eight case. And you talked before a little bit about how the defendants were thrown together. They all were coming from different organizations, different different parts of the, or wings or aspects or whatever you want to call it, of the left. Right. Different strategies and emphasis, but the really the most randomly selected defendant, right.

00;13;46;08 - 00;14;02;12

Jonathan Hafetz

Had to be Bobby Seale because he was right. He was barely in Chicago. He was there for like a night. And it seemed to it seemed like they the prosecution threw him in to really try to taint the defense. Is that an accurate statement?

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Gerald Lefcourt

Well, I mean, I was saying before, I think that the purpose of the prosecution was to pick up on all the enemies that Nixon had and the groups that were out there organizing against them. To be clear, certain black organizations were very much a part of the organizing efforts against Nixon and the Republicans. You know, it was quite natural, since he was there in Chicago, made a speech.

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Gerald Lefcourt

And, of course, every speech they interpreted as an incitement to riot. They had somebody from the black world as to show that these were Nixon's enemies. That's apparently what Nixon was up to. And Mitchell was carrying it out.

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Jonathan Hafetz

And so the Chicago eight become the Chicago seven after as much before, after. There's a mistrial, a motion for a mistrial is granted against Bobby Seale. But the treatment of Bobby Seale by the judge, Julius Hoffman, is, I think, pretty astonishing and horrific. I'm going to just play a clip now for for you to to comment on. But the issue is or one of the issues is Bobby Seale wants to represent himself.

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Jonathan Hafetz

His, his attorney, the attorney he originally had is unable is is cannot attend is a medical. Charles Garry we had retained originally to represent him has a medical issue and is not able to go to the trial and so Bobby Seale, since he's not able to appear, Bobby Seale wants to represent himself and not be represented by counselor, who's representing the other defendants.

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Jonathan Hafetz

So let me play the clip and then, I'd love to hear what your thoughts are. This is from The Trial of Chicago, eight.

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Movie Dialogue

The stand in recess for one hour, and the court will resume at. I have a motion I'd like to bring forward to the court. You wish to address the court, Mr. Stewart? Yes. I have a motion. I made to suit. Yes, ma'am. Mr. Siegel. Do you have a motion? Bobby Seale have a motion posted to defend myself.

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Movie Dialogue

I'd like to invoke the precedent of Adams versus us and surround McCain with a Supreme Court. All right, let's get to know. Where are you running these things? Does your young friend, Mr. Hampton have a background in law on the other defendants would like to join in Mr. seal's motion. Are you now speaking on behalf of Mr. Suit?

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Movie Dialogue

No, Your Honor, I am speaking on behalf of the other defendant. You're standing right next to him. Why? Those are just represented. Because I'm not his lawyer. So if I understand, Mr. Seale, this last month and a half, and I believe I have, he is not represented by counsel. Overruled. And being denied was the constitutional right for me to represent to him.

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Movie Dialogue

I do have lawyers to speak for, you know, he doesn't state Mr. Kunstler with his second count of contempt. Oh, was.

00;17;15;23 - 00;17;22;04

Jonathan Hafetz

So this is one of the heated exchanges that the film depicts. Is this accurate? What was going on in the courtroom?

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Gerald Lefcourt

This was the crucial opening to this case. Charles Gary, the long time lawyer for the Black Panthers in Oakland, California, where they were formed, went to Judge Hoffman two months before the trial date, said he needed a gallbladder operation and asked for a month postponement. Everybody was willing to go along with it. Judge Hoffman denied that motion. Bobby Seale, the only lawyer he ever knew was Charles Gary, shows up at the trial without a lawyer.

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Gerald Lefcourt

The judge and the prosecution scramble and decide that the lawyers, who were working on various pretrial aspects of the case, like Michael Tiger, Michael Kennedy, Dennis Roberts and myself who had worked on pretrial motions he dragged before the court and ordered us to represent Seale. We refused because Seale had a lawyer. It was the only lawyer he ever knew, and we supported his right to choose his own lawyer.

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Gerald Lefcourt

Judge Hoffman held us in contempt, threw me in jail with Tiger in Chicago, in a cell with Bobby Seale, who was not out on bail on another case. And so the trial began with lawyers in jail. This created national news beyond belief. And it was a Friday that he held me in contempt, put me in jail. And Friday night, after court was over, it was too late for anyone to go to the to the US Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit.

00;19;19;12 - 00;19;48;21

Gerald Lefcourt

And we were stuck at about 10:00 at night, and the order came down from the Court of Appeals on their own, ruling that we should be let go on appellate bail. We hadn't even been sentenced by. And that was how the trial began, with crazy actions by the judge, which just intensified in reaction to him jailing the lawyers.

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Gerald Lefcourt

Ultimately, while I was in jail at lunch time with Seale, I said, the government has opened. You know what? If you're going to represent yourself, you're up. And when we came back after lunch, Seale stood up to make his own opening. The judge told him to sit down, had the marshals sit him down. So began the craze sickness and chaos of the reaction to seal's attempts to defend himself.

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Jonathan Hafetz

And that included his being gagged, bound and beaten. Right?

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Gerald Lefcourt

Absolutely. And the movie pretty much got that stuff right. He was chained to a chair. He he had this gag and he was mumbling under the gag, trying to talk. He was his hands were tied behind his back. It was crazy. Somebody called it a medieval torture chamber.

00;20;53;07 - 00;21;14;10

Jonathan Hafetz

And that's what it looks like from it did puzzled me a little bit. What I mean, the because you do, a defendant has the right right to self-representation. Bobby Seale cites the Supreme Court case. So what was the legal basis for, Judge Hoffman denying it? Was it there had been some initial appearance entered into it.

00;21;14;10 - 00;21;19;15

Jonathan Hafetz

Was he view judge Hoffman viewed it as a matter of discretion. Because I did puzzle me.

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Gerald Lefcourt

If there's no rhyme or reason to what he did. He never explained himself. He just did it. Prosecutors wanted it. It was done. It was an outrage on every level. His lawyer came to the court telling the judge that he had to be operated on as a lousy month. By the way, the case was indicted in April. The trial was September.

00;21;47;20 - 00;21;51;16

Gerald Lefcourt

This was one of the quickest trials in criminal history.

00;21;51;19 - 00;22;00;10

Jonathan Hafetz

And what convinced Judge Hoffman to to actually to grant, mistrial motion. So, Bobby, to have Bobby Seale dismissed from the case.

00;22;00;13 - 00;22;26;03

Gerald Lefcourt

Well, I always suspected that the government and the judge were talking outside of our presence, but it obviously was so chaotic in that courtroom with the defendant shamed and gagged and trying to make noise through his gag, that it became untenable. And so they wanted to continue with the trial, and they couldn't continue with Seale. It was just out of the question.

00;22;26;06 - 00;22;32;24

Jonathan Hafetz

That's the bridge. Bridge too far. The other defense were reversed on appeal, but that for different reasons. But that surely would have been reversed.

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Gerald Lefcourt

Not only did he have a right to defend himself, he had a right to choice of counsel in such a short time. From indictment to trial. Date. I mean, it's really unheard of.

00;22;45;16 - 00;23;01;07

Jonathan Hafetz

What were your impressions of Judge Hoffman beyond the treatment of Bobby Seale? The movie depicts him in a very negative light, including his numerous, contempt citations against defense counsel. What were your impressions of Judge Hoffman?

00;23;01;10 - 00;23;32;04

Gerald Lefcourt

I really thought he was off of this rocker. I mean, he was just inappropriate all the time. It was. I mean, the prosecutors were troubled by his. The way he acted, he was just impossible. I don't know what his reputation was before, but in every way, it was bizarre. He would interrupt you. He would make sly comments.

00;23;32;07 - 00;24;04;23

Gerald Lefcourt

You know, this case was, the subject of pretrial motions that were very serious. 4 or 5 of the defendants was subject to national security wiretaps and searches. I mean, there was then the government disclosed years of warrantless searches, wiretaps, and, I mean, they were considered enemies of the state. And so there was serious things going on in this case.

00;24;04;23 - 00;24;23;29

Gerald Lefcourt

And needless to say, antiwar and civil rights were on the front pages of everything with Martin Luther King and, you know, numerous nationwide protests. So I don't know, you know, what he thought he was doing?

00;24;24;01 - 00;24;45;07

Jonathan Hafetz

I don't know either. And and it's not just the protests that were on the front page. Right. The trial was covered nationally, as I understand it, it was difficult to get in as an observer. I mean, this was a very, a major story. And it's hard to imagine a judge proceeding in this way when the world is watching the case.

00;24;45;10 - 00;24;52;08

Gerald Lefcourt

No question. It was just unfathomable. I mean, he he was a bizarre personality.

00;24;52;10 - 00;25;17;17

Jonathan Hafetz

I mean, in addition to the defendants, he seemed to have it in for William, counselor. He was cited with multiple contempt citations. And, if I'm not incorrect, I mean, counsel received a four year sentence, for his contempt citations, which was longer than the sentences that the defendants got when they were convicted for crossing state lines for to incite a riot.

00;25;17;19 - 00;26;01;16

Gerald Lefcourt

Right. He viewed counselor, as, you know, the the leader of the enemy crowd. And whatever chance he got, he would issue a citation for contempt. I mean, it didn't start and end with counselor. All the defendants fed contempt citations. And, you know, after the lawyers were jailed and the bizarre way that the trial started with Seale bound and gagged, the trial became, you know, just one crazy episode after another, not the least of which, led by my client, who was just brilliant, Abbie Hoffman.

00;26;01;18 - 00;26;15;07

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah. You know, in preparing for the podcast, I, I knew some things about Abbie Hoffman, general story, but I, you know, I read more and just kind of amazed at his genius.

00;26;15;09 - 00;26;55;18

Gerald Lefcourt

It's unbelievable. Jonathan. There's nobody ever like, you know, he looked at this trial as a major organizing effort against the war and for civil rights, and he went almost every night to another place to rile up supporters and antiwar activists. He would go to the University of Michigan, the University of Wisconsin, Ohio State, wherever, every night it was somewhere else, speaking to thousands of people and organizing around the trial.

00;26;55;18 - 00;27;31;10

Gerald Lefcourt

And he said, don't just remember TDA the day after. You know what to do. Literally the day after millions of people were in the streets all over the country, half a million in the Boston Commons in San Diego, the Bank of America was burned. I mean, this trial for Abbie was an opportunity to take his antiwar and civil rights politics and push the country as far as he could.

00;27;31;12 - 00;28;02;23

Gerald Lefcourt

And there were polls taken after the trial that more Americans opposed the war. More than 50% of the country after the trial, which was less before the trial. Now, while he viewed this as a great organizing opportunity, some of his co-defendants didn't. Tom Hayden wanted the case over with as soon as possible, and didn't even want to present a defense, but we could talk more about that.

00;28;02;26 - 00;28;26;24

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah, I there's another film. I don't know if you've seen it called the Chicago ten, which is a mix of animation and real life footage, and that in that film it shows exactly what you say. They show Hoffman and some other, I think, and Jerry Rubin and some of the other defendants going traveling like what, night or on the weekend, especially in organizing during the trial.

00;28;26;26 - 00;28;53;24

Jonathan Hafetz

And I mean, he really did. He saw it. It seemed to me Abbie Hoffman saw the the trial as an opportunity, as you said, to build, or increase the opposition, to mobilize opposition to the war. But I think he also saw the trial as political theater. He did not appear to place great faith in, well, in the legal institutions, but particularly not in the courtroom that was hearing his case.

00;28;53;29 - 00;29;04;19

Jonathan Hafetz

And so rather than kind of fight on their terms, he was going to try to expose the trial for what it was absolutely.

00;29;04;19 - 00;29;31;24

Gerald Lefcourt

And and before the trial, he prepared a score, a score sheet, like, you get out of a Yankee game with who the players were. And one side called the government, the other side called the conspiracy. I mean, these defendants were hardly conspirators. I mean, you can imagine I mean, when Bobby Seale came the first day, never forget this.

00;29;31;26 - 00;29;58;25

Gerald Lefcourt

We had a conference room in the courthouse. This is the arraignment. And the day that the trial date was set, Bobby Seale shows up. He was out on bail on another case at the moment, and he started to ask the lawyers for their business cards. And he went up to David Dellinger to ask him for his card, thinking that David was a lawyer.

00;29;58;27 - 00;30;15;18

Gerald Lefcourt

David was the lead defendant. It was United States against Dellinger et al. I mean, these people barely knew each other, except they were part of one gigantic movement for social change, antiwar and civil rights.

00;30;15;21 - 00;30;32;20

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah, it's really important to bring that out. The film kind of just I mean, it definitely suggests the difference is, between them, a different approaches. But it it does suggest that there was more of a relationship between them then than you say. But there was there were a lot of protest. I mean, these weren't the only protest either at the time.

00;30;32;20 - 00;30;36;16

Jonathan Hafetz

Right? There were other groups protesting at the convention.

00;30;36;18 - 00;31;14;04

Gerald Lefcourt

Well, just think of it. David Dellinger was indicted in the Chicago Way because he was the head of something called the Mob family. B, the mobilization and the War in Vietnam. And that was made up of numerous groups of all kinds, including church people. David was a pacifist and had a history of opposing war. Even World War Two, you know, so there were many, many antiwar groups, you know, that were represented by the mob.

00;31;14;06 - 00;31;21;26

Gerald Lefcourt

So this was just others, the Yippies, students for a Democratic Society and the like.

00;31;21;29 - 00;31;26;27

Jonathan Hafetz

And he was a committed pacifist, I think, through the end of his life as well.

00;31;26;29 - 00;31;37;05

Gerald Lefcourt

That he was, although the Chicago trial got up so angry, that was as close as he ever came to thinking about violence.

00;31;37;07 - 00;31;43;06

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah. Well, they shot I mean, the film, I think it's it's not accurate. They have him, like, shoving a marshall.

00;31;43;08 - 00;31;44;13

Gerald Lefcourt

Now that they're.

00;31;44;16 - 00;31;46;29

Jonathan Hafetz

Not accurate. Right.

00;31;47;01 - 00;31;47;23

Movie Dialogue

I mean, a.

00;31;47;23 - 00;32;10;07

Jonathan Hafetz

Good dramatic effect, I guess, to show he was pushed, but not accurate. I want to go back just for a minute. And I do want to. I want to talk more about Abbie Hoffman and representing Abbie Hoffman after. But I want to go just to this Abbie Hoffman Tom Hayden dynamic, because I think in a lot of ways that the film puts that at the center, their different approaches, the way they view protest and how to achieve change.

00;32;10;07 - 00;32;29;28

Jonathan Hafetz

And, in the end, I think they there's some kind of reconciliation, but that's kind of the underlying kind of conflict on the side of the defendants. So I'm going to play this clip, which is occurring at one evening when the defendants are meeting, and there's an argument between, Hoffman and Tom Hayden.

00;32;30;00 - 00;32;52;23

Movie Dialogue

Which means the last thing I want is to end the war. What? Centuries ago, when the trial started, said, why did I come to Chicago? And I said, to end the war. And then you turn to everyone, and you said the last thing he wants is to end the war. I mean by that, I mean, you're making the most of your close up.

00;32;52;25 - 00;33;17;13

Movie Dialogue

Yeah. No more. No more Abbie Hoffman. What's the problem with me? Hayden? I really wish people would stop asking me because they wouldn't want to answer one time. All right, no problem. Is it for the next 50 years, when people think of progressive politics, they're going to think of you. They're going to think of you and your idiot followers passing out disease to soldiers and trying to levitate the Pentagon.

00;33;17;13 - 00;33;42;26

Movie Dialogue

So they're not going to think of equality or justice. They're not going to think of education or poverty or progress. They're going to think of a bunch of stones lost, disrespectful, foul mouthed, lawless losers. And so we'll lose elections all because of me. Yeah. And winning elections. That's the first thing on your wish list. Equality, justice, education, poverty and progress.

00;33;42;26 - 00;34;08;18

Movie Dialogue

They say if you don't win elections, it doesn't matter what. Second, and it is astonishing to me that someone still has to explain that to you. Okay. Okay. So, so Jerry was talking about that. Don't have any money. And so what, you want to think money. So stage stunts and cameras and microphones come, and it's astonishing that someone still has to explain that to you.

00;34;08;22 - 00;34;29;01

Movie Dialogue

You're trading a cow for mansplaining, and that ended up working. What? The magic beans. There was a giant up there. Oh, I can't remember what happened. To add to that, the little boy may have gotten eaten. Jane turned out to be nice. Are you sure? No. It's almost hard to believe the seven of us weren't able to in the war.

00;34;29;02 - 00;34;52;25

Movie Dialogue

Let me ask you something. You guys should just shake hands in Chicago. Would have done differently if Kennedy got the nomination to us. Just just, Yes, Abby, I do. I think the Irish guys would have said down the hill and yes, I think so, too. Yeah. That's why I was wondering, why don't you just live a little bit happy when the bullet went through his head?

00;34;52;27 - 00;35;14;28

Movie Dialogue

No Chicago, no Tom Hayden. I was hoping you suck it up when I've got to jail. Because when we did, we're going to jail because of who we are. Thinking about that the next time you shrug off Cultural Revolution, we define winning differently. You and I.

00;35;15;00 - 00;35;25;12

Jonathan Hafetz

You can really see the difference between their approaches. What? How accurate is this and what's your impression of this scene and of you know, the competing approaches?

00;35;25;14 - 00;35;58;00

Gerald Lefcourt

Well, you know, I think there's something I like about the scene, even though it's not exactly what occurred or what they were thinking, but it does create, an appropriate understanding of the differences in tactics. You know, Abby would say, I don't believe in isms. Communism, capitalism. You know, he believed the organizing was about getting people involved and getting them their spirits.

00;35;58;02 - 00;36;44;23

Gerald Lefcourt

And he viewed the trial as an organizing opportunity par excellence. Tom, the intellectual who was there at the port, your, statements, the founding of SDS couldn't stand Abby's taught tactics and didn't really understand the mean. Abby was, a tremendous motivator through I mean, he adopted a whole persona. He, after all, you know, was a psychologist. He had gone to Brandeis, and he adopted this sort of, yuppie attitude to suck in young people.

00;36;44;26 - 00;37;22;10

Gerald Lefcourt

Tom was talking in Abby's, you know, old people. Abby wanted to organize the youth, which is why he founded the Youth International party or the hippies. And so they viewed everything basically the same. But the tactics were terribly different. Tom at the House un-American Activities Committee sat down and testified. You know, you won't remember a word of it, but it was probably all right that very serious, a very antiwar Abby's approach.

00;37;22;13 - 00;37;51;20

Gerald Lefcourt

He sat down with me and said, we have to steal the headline. We have to do something that takes away the house un-American activities ability to trash us, to label us. And he came up with wearing an American flag shirt to say, I'm more American than you. I'm exercising my First Amendment rights. And then I said, Abby, there's a new flag desecration.

00;37;51;20 - 00;37;56;16

Gerald Lefcourt

You're the statue. You're going to be arrested. He said, perfect.

00;37;56;18 - 00;37;58;15

Movie Dialogue

00;37;58;18 - 00;38;27;15

Gerald Lefcourt

And he was. He showed up with a flag shirt and was immediately arrested. It was front page of every newspaper. It was that year was a fight about the flag. Time magazine had the flag on the cover. Abby created a way to take away the only power you had, which was their condemnation and calling everybody communists.

00;38;27;17 - 00;38;56;05

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah. I mean, and it seems he really, you know, he just understood on a deeper level what was going on in the trial and what the trial was about. And almost like rather than trying to counter the arguments on their own term, he just kind of flipped everything around and showed the absurdity. I mean, there's so many moments, I think some or some are in the film and some are not captured, but, you know, he dressing in judicial robes, right, to mock the courtroom.

00;38;56;08 - 00;39;14;01

Jonathan Hafetz

I think he, if I'm not incorrect. When he was sworn in as a witness, he gave the finger to the judge, saying. Yeah, because a lot of ground obscenity, too. So he says, you know, your idea, your idea of justice is the only obscenity in the room. And then apparently, at the end of the trial, I don't know if this is true or not.

00;39;14;01 - 00;39;21;07

Jonathan Hafetz

He suggested the judge try LSD and, offered to set him up with the dealer he knew in Florida.

00;39;21;10 - 00;39;49;10

Gerald Lefcourt

He actually where they got on the stand. I mean, he thought through things to the degree that you have to speak, be with them to understand. Before the trial in early August was the Woodstock festival, Abbie was in rage that they organized this youth dominated music festival a month before they were going on trial, as he would say, for our lives.

00;39;49;12 - 00;40;13;15

Gerald Lefcourt

And you. And he stormed into the office of the people putting together Woodstock and demanded that they have Phil Oaks and other anti-war singers on the program. And he went to Woodstock, and he made a whole thing of it. And when he got on the witness stand near the end of the year, I guess it was December, some time.

00;40;13;18 - 00;40;28;14

Gerald Lefcourt

He said, they said, name an address. And he said, Abbie Hoffman, Woodstock Nation. And they he just put it all together all the time. Amazed.

00;40;28;16 - 00;40;46;14

Jonathan Hafetz

And and he operated, you know, it's amazing. Now looking back as, as he and Jerry Rubin too, they were operating, you know, without social media. Right. I mean, they they were masters at the, you know, publicity stunt or whatever you want to call it, to get the cameras and newsprint. But, I mean, I can only imagine if they had access.

00;40;46;19 - 00;40;52;03

Jonathan Hafetz

Abbie Hoffman had a Twitter account or an Instagram. I mean, it would have like, yeah, super charged.

00;40;52;05 - 00;41;15;13

Gerald Lefcourt

Amazing. And he would try to think of things that could grab the headlines and use the media for his own purposes, condemning outrageous capitalism. He would go to the stock exchange, get in the balcony and throw 101 singles on the floor and watch all the brokerage, killing each other, trying to get the money.

00;41;15;15 - 00;41;16;15

Movie Dialogue

00;41;16;18 - 00;41;56;05

Jonathan Hafetz

And and he was, you know, this was in his first, legal proceeding right afterwards. He was, well, he was arrested at UMass, right, in 19 and the early 1970s for protesting CIA recruiting, along with Amy Carter. Right. And as I understand, when he was charged, his defense was that the university policy had limited campus recruitment to law abiding organizations and the defense argued that the CIA was engaged in illegal activities by aiding because they were aiding the Contras against the Sandinistas in Nicaragua, in violation of the Boland Amendment, and a host of other things.

00;41;56;07 - 00;42;14;08

Gerald Lefcourt

Absolutely. And he represented himself in that trial. And he received after the trial a letter from Jimmy Carter thanking him for the way he treated his daughter and the way he acted in the trial. And it was one of his cherished possessions.

00;42;14;11 - 00;42;32;21

Jonathan Hafetz

Oh, wow. Oh that's great. Was it well, was it ever challenging for you? You represented him through the years until his tragic death in 1989, I believe. And, you know, sometimes, you know, he's doing these things. And the defense lawyer in you maybe would say, but this isn't in your interest. You know, I don't want you.

00;42;32;24 - 00;42;45;18

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah. This will hurt you. You you know, you might. Kelly might be convicted, right? I mean, I understand what you're trying to do, but was it was there ever, like, a challenge for you in giving him legal advice, given his approach?

00;42;45;20 - 00;43;24;03

Gerald Lefcourt

You know, it was a constant battle on that level. But, you know, he organized me. He made me a believer. One of the first days we met, after he called me, I came down to his one room apartment on the Lower East Side, and it was around 7:00 at night, and we spoke for 12 hours. He cooked some food, you know, sometime around 6 a.m., you know, he said, let's make a pact.

00;43;24;06 - 00;43;27;28

Gerald Lefcourt

I will make a revolution. You just keep me out of jail.

00;43;28;01 - 00;43;31;06

Movie Dialogue

00;43;31;08 - 00;43;34;21

Jonathan Hafetz

And hopefully they accomplish both of both of those goals, right?

00;43;34;26 - 00;43;36;00

Movie Dialogue

Right.

00;43;36;03 - 00;43;54;06

Jonathan Hafetz

We talked about Tom Hayden and Dave Dellinger. And incidentally, Dave Dellinger is the one who reads, apparently reads the name of the protesters. Sorry. Dave Dowager's the one who reads the name of the dead soldiers in Vietnam. Not right. But what about Jerry Rubin? What was his relationship with Jerry Rubin like?

00;43;54;08 - 00;44;26;17

Gerald Lefcourt

Well, Abbie and Jerry were founding members of hippies. They were very close, along with a third person by the name of Paul Krassner, who had a quarterly magazine called The Realist. But he too was a founder of the Yippies, and their whole idea was about using the media for organizing purposes, cultural issues, organizing young people. And so they were part of a team.

00;44;26;20 - 00;44;54;18

Gerald Lefcourt

You know, I know, Jerry, I knew Jerry very well. I represented him as well. But, you know, he had some great ideas. He wrote several books. One called Do It, about all their escapades. But he was no Abbie. I don't know what else to say about it, but ultimately, Jerry Rubin went to work on Wall Street, which really offended Abbie.

00;44;54;20 - 00;45;05;24

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah, I was going to ask you about that. They took different paths, Abbie continued. Kind of doing what he was doing, doing his thing. And Jerry, as you said, you know, became a broker. I think about it. Well.

00;45;05;27 - 00;45;23;09

Gerald Lefcourt

Not only that, but he wrote an op ed for The Times. The closing lines were something like, let's make capitalism work for everybody. Abbie said, what? It's designed not to work for everybody.

00;45;23;11 - 00;45;24;02

Movie Dialogue

Right, exactly.

00;45;24;02 - 00;45;38;18

Jonathan Hafetz

Exactly right. Exactly. He thought there should be no in the country, should be no homeless people. Everyone should have health care. Right. So it's, it's. Yeah, it was kind of a surprising, divergence, I guess, for, you know, Jerry Rubin and.

00;45;38;20 - 00;45;53;09

Gerald Lefcourt

Well, I mean, he he left Wall Street. I guess he ended up being involved in, the vitamin industry in some way to get. Exactly. But they cared about each other.

00;45;53;12 - 00;46;01;13

Jonathan Hafetz

I did recall Jerry when Abby. Abby passed away. Jerry had done very moving tributes and everything. So that's certainly the case as well.

00;46;01;16 - 00;46;02;09

Gerald Lefcourt

Yeah.

00;46;02;11 - 00;46;21;25

Jonathan Hafetz

Just to go back to trial for a second, one of the interesting things that the movie doesn't capture is the number of other celebrity, although the defendants were kind of celebrities or cultural witnesses, right? Norman Mailer, Judy Collins, Allen Ginsberg, Arlo Guthrie, some others.

00;46;21;27 - 00;46;23;05

Gerald Lefcourt

Jesse Jackson.

00;46;23;05 - 00;46;26;13

Jonathan Hafetz

And thank you, Jesse Jackson.

00;46;26;16 - 00;46;55;24

Gerald Lefcourt

Timothy Leary, Bill Oakes, Arlo Guthrie, Country Joe McDonald, Dick Gregory. You know, it was an honor for people to be able to be a witness for the defense in the Chicago eight case. Again, Abby wanted to put on a defense. Tom Hayden wanted to rest after the government's case. And I'm not laying it all on Tom. There was a debate.

00;46;55;27 - 00;47;32;01

Gerald Lefcourt

Abby won out and convinced everybody to put on a defense, and it became such an honor. I remember there was a congressman, Allard Lowenstein, who, was the head of the Drum Johnson movement when Lyndon Johnson was president. And a terrific person. But some of the defendants remembered that he went as a student on behalf of the CIA to a Helsinki student International Students conference.

00;47;32;03 - 00;47;39;23

Gerald Lefcourt

And these defendants ultimately were very political, and they wouldn't let out testify.

00;47;39;25 - 00;48;14;12

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah. I mean, just just an amazing way to conceive the to conceive of the trial. So we talked a little bit about, at least one thing the film got right or approximately right, the treatment of Bobby Seale and some of the things that it got wrong, understanding that it's very difficult to capture what was a five month trial in a two hour film and capture the story and to get the details right, if you had been a consultant to writer director Aaron Sorkin on the film, what would you have?

00;48;14;15 - 00;48;18;20

Jonathan Hafetz

What are some of the main pieces of advice? The main piece of advice you would have given them?

00;48;18;22 - 00;49;06;19

Gerald Lefcourt

Well, to me it was the most important trial in American history. I say that because not only was it totally a national event, but it involved the key subjects of the general session, and it was very effective in changing people's minds. Aaron Sorkin had none of that. He didn't have demonstrations. I mean, millions of people went in the streets at various points during the trial, and before and certainly afterwards and the day after, but in October of 69 and November of 69, half a million people in Washington, DC chanting, stop the trial!

00;49;06;22 - 00;49;40;14

Gerald Lefcourt

Stop the trial! These people were changing society, changing important politics of the nation. He didn't do anything about that. This judge put lawyers in jail. He didn't put it in the movie. It set the trial off on a road that was crazy. He just missed so much. But on the other hand, to his credit and to Sacha Baron Cohen's credit, they did capture a feeling that was special.

00;49;40;16 - 00;50;20;25

Gerald Lefcourt

Sacha Baron Cohen, when he was, in England doing a paper, he decided to make his paper on American Jews who went to the civil rights movement in the South to organize people to vote. And one of those people was Abbie Hoffman, and he wanted to play at you know, it just seems to me that the movie had an opportunity for other things to point out other things and its role in the history of the country, and it failed in that respect.

00;50;20;27 - 00;50;31;08

Gerald Lefcourt

But again, I did get this good feeling about the the role of the defendants and how they interacted with the government.

00;50;31;10 - 00;50;55;25

Jonathan Hafetz

I'm glad that that you say that about Sacha Baron Cohen's performance, because you knew Abbie so well and that, captured him and and in good, in good respects, because, you know, for someone like me, I've now obviously never met him. I only know him by what I read about or what I see. It's nice to have that impression, because kind of it's the Sacha Baron Cohen as Abbie Hoffman that kind of stays with me, because otherwise you just have the photos.

00;50;55;25 - 00;51;05;12

Jonathan Hafetz

But that's the, you know, that's kind of the image that I have and probably a lot of other people have. So I'm glad that someone who was close to him and represented him for two decades, that was your impression?

00;51;05;14 - 00;51;37;26

Gerald Lefcourt

Yes. And he was interviewed and and talked about that. I mean, you think about, you know, Abbie going to the South, he didn't go as a Yippie. He went with his suit jacket and organized people to get them to register to vote. Civil rights was his mantra. As much as anti-war was only thing that he liked more was playing tennis and beating up on me.

00;51;37;28 - 00;51;43;12

Jonathan Hafetz

I read that he was an excellent tennis player, which is, I guess he was. He was an athlete at one time.

00;51;43;14 - 00;51;53;16

Gerald Lefcourt

He was definitely an athlete. He was captain of the Brandeis tennis team, and he and I used to play all the time. He was one tough cookie.

00;51;53;18 - 00;51;54;23

Jonathan Hafetz

The strong serve.

00;51;54;25 - 00;52;08;27

Gerald Lefcourt

He was fast and they had a good backhand. As a matter of fact, in front of the courthouse one day, he did one of those standing flips. Wow, look. Blew everybody's mind.

00;52;08;29 - 00;52;41;11

Jonathan Hafetz

That's wow. That was amazing. Amazing. I want to ask you quickly about the prosecutor, though, prosecutor Richard Schultz, who's played by Joseph Gordon-Levitt, is made out to be something of a sympathetic character. He's forced by Mitchell and his boss, Thomas ran to prosecute this case. And the way the film depicts it is that while, Schultz doesn't agree with, protestors, he's he doesn't like the case, and he's kind of reluctant and prosecuting it.

00;52;41;11 - 00;52;55;00

Jonathan Hafetz

And at the end, they have the scene where when Tom Hayden reads the names of the dead, the men are killed in Vietnam, and everyone stands up and tribute, Schultz stands up to say, like they've won over Schultz. How accurate is that?

00;52;55;03 - 00;53;35;29

Gerald Lefcourt

It's totally false. Not only were they gung ho and obviously gung ho, there was no interaction with any of the defendants as portrayed in the film. But beyond that, 20 years later or 15 years later, Schultz and I were invited on a TV program of Harvard law professor. I forget his name used to do these one hour a half hour TV shows with lawyers arguing the case in front of a jury, and the jury would go, and they chose Schultz and I to argue one of these cases.

00;53;36;01 - 00;53;46;08

Gerald Lefcourt

And it was a protest case. And as soon as we got into the green room, the animosity still lurked. And that.

00;53;46;10 - 00;53;47;28

Movie Dialogue

Oh.

00;53;48;01 - 00;54;02;23

Gerald Lefcourt

I mean, it just it was totally false. They were gung ho, and they acted in a way. I mean, he gladly argued for my contempt because I refuse to represent Sue.

00;54;02;25 - 00;54;26;27

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah, that's I mean, it's just, you know, it's not a major point in the movie, but it it's I mean, to me, it's a little bit troubling and partly because of the way Sorkin wants to kind of defend the system and defend, you know, the good guys in the government, even if there were bad actors like Mitchell. But, you know, as one defense attorney to another, I, you know, knowing what Schultz is really like does not surprise me.

00;54;27;00 - 00;55;03;18

Gerald Lefcourt

Yeah. And, you know, there's something I saw Sorkin interviewed on something I think maybe it was MSNBC, The Night Show or Late Show with Lawrence O'Donnell, and he said he never heard of the Chicago before he was asked to rewrite the script. I saw this script years earlier when it was given to HBO. A friend of mine who used to be co co-CEO of HBO, and he sent it to me and it made ABC to be a buffoon.

00;55;03;20 - 00;55;35;12

Gerald Lefcourt

They did. Just didn't get it. And ultimately it went to, to get his name, a comedic actor who was going to direct it. And then finally to Aaron Sorkin. It went through various stages, so I don't know where he got, who did his research, but I never saw anything anywhere that indicated the prosecutors were sympathetic or unhappy with their role.

00;55;35;14 - 00;55;58;20

Jonathan Hafetz

And or even ambivalent. Jerry, let me ask you, because after your work on, you know, Chicago seven, Chicago eight, and your representation of the Black Panther trial, which actually love to hear you comment on that, too. You continued in this work, but your, you know, your practice grew broader and more diverse, representing business leaders, political, leaders, others.

00;55;58;23 - 00;56;02;04

Jonathan Hafetz

How did the trial kind of affect your development and your career?

00;56;02;06 - 00;56;39;08

Gerald Lefcourt

Well, I had mentors around the time of the trial, including Bill, counselor in the trial, Lawrence Kennedy was, black lawyer who actually represented Rap Brown and became very active in the women's movement. She hired my sister in law, Carol, who was a lawyer. And I learned that something about battles and wars, how these things that, you know, were difficult to resolve and you lose a lot of, the defense, our battles.

00;56;39;08 - 00;57;11;22

Gerald Lefcourt

But there's the big war. And somehow that trial was, an education in itself, you know, problems and getting through the battles and thinking of the big picture, keeping the overall big picture in mind. And it sort of served me over the years. I did many political cases in that era. Black Liberation Army, Black Panthers, Buffalo nine trial, which was anti-war stuff.

00;57;11;28 - 00;57;50;29

Gerald Lefcourt

Many, many student arrests and protests. But one of the things that always stuck with me was my work as a legal aid lawyer, and how I felt we were not up to the task, we weren't trained, we didn't have resources. And so the defense lawyer role became paramount to my life. And so I was a founder of most of the defense organizations and served as the head of two of them to try to change the quality that defendants received.

00;57;50;29 - 00;58;22;18

Gerald Lefcourt

And in terms of justice in this country, which is still a major, major problem, you know, you think of places outside of New York where there are no defender systems at all. Judges just throw lawyers into cases willy nilly. Serious cases. So the quality of justice is sort of became paramount to me. And needless to say, I wanted to be able to make a living at what I do.

00;58;22;18 - 00;58;28;27

Gerald Lefcourt

So it was important to get into white collar work. And, I've done so.

00;58;29;00 - 00;58;47;01

Jonathan Hafetz

I mean, and you talk about the problems, in terms of funding and defense resources. I mean, even even in places like New York, as opposed to state like Mississippi, that's still vast, you know, defense vastly overmatched. Most cases, don't go to trial. People are forced to take pleas. So it's a that's an ongoing that's an ongoing problem.

00;58;47;02 - 00;59;41;24

Gerald Lefcourt

So much so when I was president of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, I had a meeting with Janet Reno when she was attorney general. I guess this was, late 90s and got her to start thinking about this and told her how I got involved and how ineffectual I felt as a public defender and so overwhelmed with caseloads and lack of resources and lack of training and how how bad it is in so many states that she actually organized conferences on the subject, bringing together public defender organizations, and actually allocated some funds within her discretionary use of her budget to help.

00;59;41;27 - 00;59;45;13

Gerald Lefcourt

Of course, the problem is never ending.

00;59;45;15 - 01;00;08;12

Jonathan Hafetz

I mean, they're good people and good things important to push back. But, you know, the task is also large, but it's an ongoing struggle. The film for a second, I just want to get your sense of whether and why the film is relevant today. I mean, how does the film resonate and the events of the Chicago seven Chicago eight trial in 2023?

01;00;08;14 - 01;00;40;06

Gerald Lefcourt

Well, I'm not sure if it does, but I would hope it does. And if he had dealt with some of the stuff that was left out, its role in history and massive demonstrations, it spurned and its effect on the country, it would have. Maybe it has affected things like Black Lives Matter, the Floyd protests. You know, it should whether it did or does.

01;00;40;06 - 01;00;49;15

Gerald Lefcourt

I don't know for sure, but certainly that's an aspect that the movie could have addressed better.

01;00;49;17 - 01;00;57;18

Jonathan Hafetz

And one of the things I'm thinking about today is, you know, a lot of the large protests are on the other side now, right? It's more right wing.

01;00;57;20 - 01;00;58;00

Gerald Lefcourt

Yeah.

01;00;58;07 - 01;01;12;23

Jonathan Hafetz

Our national groups and in some ways they're more adept at the type of publicity stunts or theater than the left is, I don't know, do you agree with that?

01;01;12;26 - 01;01;56;13

Gerald Lefcourt

I'm not sure that that's necessarily true. But a lot of people on both sides have adopted these tactics. And the way he thinks about things and creative ways to to gender support in the media, or at least coverage in the media. I remember when Bush w came to New York for, I guess, the Republican convention, maybe ten years ago, there were groups protesting, and one of the groups that were protesting was billionaires, who were down the street throwing crumbs at poor people, begging.

01;01;56;16 - 01;02;08;08

Gerald Lefcourt

You know, that kind of above file I would call it AP stunts were prevalent on the left and now on the right as well.

01;02;08;10 - 01;02;29;18

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah. And, you know, but what's striking to me about Abbie Hoffman is even as his tactics have been adopted by the right, if you will, his heart was always in the right place. Right? I mean, he's is, you know, they took his tactics or some of his tactics, but they didn't take his his values and his and his, you know, kind of, you know, kind of humor.

01;02;29;20 - 01;02;49;25

Gerald Lefcourt

Exactly. So, you know, after the Chicago trial, he stayed as an activist until his death. I mean, he got involved in all these issues saving the Saint Lawrence River, all kinds of other social issues. He never stopped.

01;02;49;27 - 01;03;10;27

Jonathan Hafetz

And he was in. So there was a period of time right from the maybe 73, 74, when he had been arrested on drug related charges till 1980. I think where he was, he was he went into hiding, but he was very public at the time. Right. He would appear, I think he would continue to lecture at 20 or 30 colleges a year.

01;03;10;29 - 01;03;15;08

Jonathan Hafetz

I just must have been at his attorney. That must have been kind of a surreal experience.

01;03;15;11 - 01;03;58;29

Gerald Lefcourt

Totally. He adopted the persona of Barry Freed, an activist, against the destruction of the Saint Lawrence River. He. But he moved to a community in western New York and became a leader of a multi-state attempt to stop Congress's, allocation of billions of dollars to transform the Saint Lawrence River by taking out that thousand islands, all the islands in the river, so that could be winter navigation by boat, steel and other products coming from the west to the east.

01;03;59;01 - 01;04;28;29

Gerald Lefcourt

And it was going to do havoc with the environment. And he started this group called save the River. And they demonstrated through several states. They brought court actions. Ultimately, Senator Moynihan came to the upstate town where Abbey was living, to hold a hearing on the winter navigation project and a public school gym, and the abbey was named.

01;04;28;29 - 01;04;48;03

Gerald Lefcourt

Barry freed was one of the key witnesses and gave this speech emotional talking about no to the destruction of the river, no to the the destruction of the environment and the onward, and at the end of which Senator Moynihan said, now I know where the 60s. What?

01;04;48;05 - 01;04;52;04

Jonathan Hafetz

And so Senator Moynihan knew that Barry Freed was Abbie Hoffman, or did you.

01;04;52;08 - 01;05;04;18

Gerald Lefcourt

Know he was looking at Barry Freed and said, oh, my God, now I know where the 60s were. Thinking it was Barry Freed not realizing that he was face to face with the 60s.

01;05;04;20 - 01;05;06;05

Movie Dialogue

01;05;06;08 - 01;05;13;19

Jonathan Hafetz

How what position is this put you in? As as I knew he was doing this, but just like this is Abbie. This is, you know.

01;05;13;22 - 01;05;26;01

Gerald Lefcourt

Well, I found an ethics opinion that said communications with somebody who is a fugitive for the purpose of arranging is surrender is not unethical.

01;05;26;04 - 01;05;36;00

Jonathan Hafetz

Think in the end, just, Yeah, it's. Everyone knows as I my understanding is he, you know, at some point he goes on Barbara Walters. Right. And then surrenders.

01;05;36;02 - 01;05;40;03

Gerald Lefcourt

He surrenders to Barbara Walters on the Saint Lawrence.

01;05;40;05 - 01;05;47;26

Jonathan Hafetz

Amazing. I mean, what a bring to bring it together. And he goes in and he does. Well, I think he says about four months or something. And then he's back out again for the remainder.

01;05;47;26 - 01;06;16;17

Gerald Lefcourt

Well, that's a whole other story. I mean, the pressure that we were able to mount with Abbey's friends like Norman Mailer and Bob Morgenthau, you know, to get the special narcotics prosecutor, Sterling Johnson, who passed away recently not to destroy Abbey was immense. We have letters from Ramsey Clark.

01;06;16;19 - 01;06;17;13

Movie Dialogue

Wow.

01;06;17;15 - 01;06;52;09

Gerald Lefcourt

Buckley. William F Buckley. Really? That all organized at parties thrown by Norman Mailer, which I would speak about Abbey's case and about his life. And finally, Morgenthau was inundated with these letters. And Morgenthau, his wife, had been a New York Times supporter and liked Abby a lot. And so Morgenthau finally came around to helping me deal with Sterling Johnson and got a sentence that he ended up doing a few months.

01;06;52;12 - 01;07;04;10

Jonathan Hafetz

That is, you know, amazing advocacy. And, you know, I think it just shows what you do just in the courtroom is just a piece of it, especially with the kind of high profile defendant like Abbie Hoffman.

01;07;04;12 - 01;07;07;10

Gerald Lefcourt

Absolutely.

01;07;07;12 - 01;07;21;13

Jonathan Hafetz

Amazing. So I wanted to I just end with a closing, words from Abbie Hopkins's last speech at Vanderbilt University in April 1989, just before he passed away. He was continuing to speak.

01;07;21;16 - 01;07;23;05

Gerald Lefcourt

You want me to read it?

01;07;23;07 - 01;07;26;21

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah. Why don't you read that? That would be great. Yeah, that'll be perfect.

01;07;26;23 - 01;07;53;04

Gerald Lefcourt

I mean, it's pretty amazing that he's speaking at Vanderbilt. And at the end of his speech, the question period, one of the people in the audience said, so what did it all mean? What were the 60s all about? What what what does it tell us? And without skipping a beat, he said the following. In the 60s, apartheid was driven out of America.

01;07;53;06 - 01;08;25;29

Gerald Lefcourt

Legal segregation. Jim Crow ended. We didn't end racism, but we did end legal segregation. We ended the idea that you could send a million soldiers 10,000 miles away to fight a war people didn't support. We ended the idea that women were second class citizens. Even George Bush has to deal with child care now. The battles we won in that period of civil war and strife, you cannot reverse.

01;08;26;02 - 01;08;36;26

Gerald Lefcourt

We were young. We were reckless, arrogant, silly, headstrong. And we were right. I regret nothing, Abby.

01;08;36;28 - 01;08;58;18

Jonathan Hafetz

That's amazing words. And I think, you know, there's a lot. You know, when you think back to the way things were before, how much was accomplished and accomplished, I think, not just through the political type of reforms that Tom Hayden character was pushing forward for, the Cultural Revolution that Abby pushed. And important to remember, there's a lot of struggles now, but there's been a lot of progress.

01;08;58;21 - 01;09;35;00

Gerald Lefcourt

Absolutely. I mean, the changes that were affected by what I view as the Greatest Generation. I know Tom Brokaw says it's about World War Two. I think it's about the 60s because the people who were involved in those movements in the 60s civil rights, antiwar, women's liberation, change, society in fundamental ways. And so that history is really very important to understand how we got where we are.

01;09;35;00 - 01;09;47;12

Gerald Lefcourt

And if you think about it, what Abbie Hoffman was advocating at the time of the trial of the Chicago eight would be the Democratic program today.

01;09;47;15 - 01;10;06;22

Jonathan Hafetz

Jerry, it's been it's been so great to have you on to able to talk to you about the film, about your experiences during this period and above all, about your, you know, relationship, professional and personal with, with Abbie Hoffman. So I just want to thank you. It's been, you know, an honor and a privilege to speak with you.

01;10;06;25 - 01;10;13;04

Gerald Lefcourt

And it's been a lot of fun for me, getting back my head into a world that I loved.

01;10;13;06 - 01;10;41;01

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah, it's been a while. Right. But, our has. Yeah. But, amazing. And, Yeah. So I, you know, recommend the film is, is, certainly not perfect but does have many aspects that make it worth seeing. And there, as I said, there are other films about this period, the Chicago Tens, another one, the animated film with real life footage by Brett Morgen, which actually does show all the activities that were going on outside in the streets at the time that you mentioned.

01;10;41;01 - 01;10;43;15

Jonathan Hafetz

Jerry. So thank you again.

01;10;43;18 - 01;10;46;06

Gerald Lefcourt

You're more than welcome and nice to talk to you.