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Jonathan Hafetz

Hi, I'm Jonathan Hafetz, and welcome to Law on Film, a podcast that explores the rich connections between law and film. This episode, we'll look at the film. Ali. Muhammad Ali is widely recognized as one of the greatest athletes of all time, and one of the most important figures of the 20th century. In addition to his long and celebrated career as a boxer and three time heavyweight champion of the world, Ali changed the conversation about race, religion, and politics in America.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Ali's refusal to be inducted into the military during the Vietnam War on religious grounds. Profound act of resistance that resulted not only in at least three year exile from boxing, but also a criminal conviction and a five year prison sentence until it's finally reversed by the Supreme Court, represented a pivotal moment of the 1960s. Ali has been the subject of numerous books and documentary films.

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Jonathan Hafetz

He's also the subject of a 2001 Hollywood biopic, Ali, co-written and directed by Michael Mann and starring Will Smith as Ali, which focuses on the approximately ten year period from Ali's capture of the heavyweight crown from Sonny Liston 1964 to his fight against George Foreman in Zaire in 1974. The famed Rumble in the jungle, once a sharply polarizing figure.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Over time, Ali became one of the most celebrated and eulogized figures in America whose rich, if not incomparable, legacy reverberates around the world today. I'm joined on this episode by David Zirin. Dave is the sports editor at The Nation magazine. He also hosts Edge of Sports Television on The Real News Network and The Edge of Sports podcast. Dave is the author of 11 books, including Jim Brown Last Man Standing, and two books about Muhammad Ali, The Muhammad Ali Handbook, which surveys Ali's career, and What's My Name for Sports and Resistance in the United States, which looks at Ali and sports and resistance in the country.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Dave has been called the best sports writer in the United States by New York Times icon Robert Lipsyte. He has spent his career probing the intersection of sports, politics and society. Dave, it's great to have you on law and film. Welcome.

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Dave Zirin

Oh, it's so great to be here. Thanks for having me.

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Jonathan Hafetz

So Muhammad Ali was born Cassius Clay in Louisville, Kentucky, in 1942. In your book on Ali, you talk about some of the formative experiences for Ali of growing up in the segregated South, including the impact that the brutal murder of 14 year old Emmett Till had on him. Ali was about the same age at the time. How did these experiences help shape Ali?

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Dave Zirin

Well, what I think shaped Ali most fundamentally is unlike a lot of heavyweight boxers in his era, he grew up very firmly in the black working class. I mean, you think about somebody like Sonny Liston who didn't know how old he was because he'd been abandoned so much as a child or or Joe Frazier, for example, if people know anything about his hardscrabble upbringing.

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Dave Zirin

Muhammad Ali grew up in a two parent home. You just had one brother, and his father worked as a house painter, and his mother was a homemaker and at and a part time domestic worker. Now, this was just not the typical soil which grew heavyweight champions or many boxers in this country, frankly. And certainly I'm not just talking about black boxers, to be clear.

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Dave Zirin

I mean, you think of the white ethnics who came up like Jake LaMotta. You know, these were not happy upbringings. And LaMotta is, of course, just one of legions of examples. And I think this shaped Ali because his father is Cassius Clay senior, who was incredibly frustrated because he had talents as a painter, but was a house painter.

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Dave Zirin

And he read things by the father did about Nation of Islam, Marcus Garvey. There were things around the house, for example, and growing up in the black working class in the 1950s also meant we grew up with a sense of expectation that your life could be better. That should be better. That's more of a white America thing, but could be better than your parent's life.

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Dave Zirin

And that I think, really, Ali is just 18 in 1960 when he wins the gold. So that means he is 13 to 18 from when Doctor King comes on the scene in 55. So in these formative years, as he's developing as a boxer, there's also a sea change happening in this country. And also Muhammad Ali is the first, like, pop culture heavyweight champion.

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Dave Zirin

You're coming up in the age of television coming up with this idea that, you know, if you said outrageous things that could resonate and mean something, and knowing how to use the camera, not just thinking that the audience at a fight was your audience, but actually playing to people through their television screens.

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Jonathan Hafetz

So after winning the Olympic gold, right. He then goes on in 1964 to beat Sonny Liston and become the world heavyweight champion. Huge upset on those famous boxing matches in history. Ali, then still Cassius Clay, announces he's a member of the Nation of Islam, and then he's casting off his slave name to become Cassius X. He's then soon after named Muhammad Ali.

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Jonathan Hafetz

That's the name that's given to him by the Nation of Islam leader Elijah Muhammad. Why was this so controversial and polarizing, including from within the mainstream civil rights community?

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Dave Zirin

Yeah, I mean, it was polarizing for an older generation of black Americans. It was polarizing for white Americans. And what I find so interesting, looking back, is that we live in a time right now of deep Islamophobia in our country. And looking back, the fact that he was becoming a muslim was less of a big deal. And he was becoming what the press called a black Muslim.

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Dave Zirin

George Foreman said that to me directly, that growing up like Ali scared him. He said, Ali scared me because he joined the Black Muslims. And I said to George Foreman, you mean because he was a muslim? And he was like, shocked that I said that? And he said, no because it was saying he was black. So that was part of it.

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Dave Zirin

Allying with a group that rejected the goals of integration ism of the civil rights movement, you know, that preached segregation for themselves, that preached a segregated form of a right wing form, I would argue, of black nationalism was something that was not on the black freedom scene in the same kind of way other than in cities like New York City and Detroit, Los Angeles, but certainly not in the mainstream media in the ways that were to come when Malcolm X would become a regular guest on a lot of these Sunday news shows while still in the Nation of Islam, and actually be a part of those debates, which are incredible.

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Dave Zirin

If people can find them. So that was part of it. But the other thing that I think needs to be underlined is the mere act of changing your name is, frankly, what resonated a lot more with people at the time as a shock than the religious change, because you didn't change your name, especially as the heavyweight champion. I think one person said, like, ask Coca-Cola why they don't change their name.

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Dave Zirin

I forget who said it, but it's a good line. And I think that the name change issue was a shock for people because it was being done on political grounds and because it was being in religious grounds, of course, and because it was being done right at the height of his powers. And you think about that like it would be like if, as we're doing this podcast after the Super Bowl, if Jalen Hurts not only said he was changing his name to whatever it might be, but also saying it from the stage as he's holding the Lombardi Trophy in front of the whole world.

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Dave Zirin

I mean, it's like the highest possible peak. He's like, by the way, that's not my name anymore. And, you know, it became the policy of even the New York Times until I believe, like 1970, before they called him Muhammad Ali. But for six years they didn't use his name. People like Robert Lipsyte of you mentioned earlier would get around it by always saying, also known as Muhammad Ali.

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Dave Zirin

He insisted on that, that his name be in there. But that was the rule at the times. And then also the name then became a totem, where as the 60s went on, where whether you called him Cassius Clay or Muhammad Ali, you know, it said something about who you were. It said something about the politics you stood with so you could have a barbershop where someone would say, hey, who's going to win the fight?

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Dave Zirin

Oh, I think it'll be Ali. Oh, really? I don't think Cassius has a chance. Then all of a sudden, you know, the political direction that somebody is coming from as well. That was the power of the name change.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah. And I think also other boxers. Right. It became an issue with Ali where other boxers, you know, its competitors, some of them anyway refused to call him by Muhammad Ali. And there's one fight where there are a number of fighters.

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Dave Zirin

Who, by the way, had really good politics. I mean, I tell this story and people think he was like backwards politically or something, but Ernie Terrell, you see, you saw him interviewed. I mean, he was just like so smart. He was doing this because he felt like it got under Ali's skin because he saw another fight. It never happened in the fight before, but he saw in other fights the way in the lead up to the fight, people would call him Cassius and Clay and it would piss him off.

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Dave Zirin

And Terrell was like, what if I play that up dramatically? You know, whisper it to him before the fight starts, all this stuff. But, you know, he didn't realize at that time that he was going up against the greatest. So instead of just making a make a mistake because he was flustered, it just made him angrier. And Terrell was destroyed in the ring.

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Jonathan Hafetz

And it it's amazing what you said about how long it took even among like the New York Times. I mean, now I feel like, you know, looking back this many years later, the Cassius Clay is almost like a trivia question, right, for people. You know, Ali, you won that battle, but.

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Dave Zirin

You won the battle. Yes. You won the naming rights to himself.

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Jonathan Hafetz

I mean, it was one of those, you know, he's just come off the win over Sonny Liston, right? He's very photogenic, very charismatic. One of those things where he created tension with public opinion, with the name change. Right. Ultimately it kind of resounds to his iconic status. And the other one is. Right. I mean, and I think, you know, to me, the most significant moment in Ali's life career is his refusal to be inducted in Vietnam in 1967.

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Jonathan Hafetz

And what strikes me most is that Ali could have taken the easy way out right after. He could have, you know, a lot of other boxers would put on like morale building events and other things to not have to fight. But he doesn't. And he paid a steep price. He's stripped of his title and from boxing in the US forces, surrenders passports so we can't fight overseas and convicted and sentenced to five years.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Which and I realized, you know, I'm doing research for this podcast, just how close he came to actually having to serve. And I think.

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Dave Zirin

I interrupt Jonathan really.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Quick.

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Dave Zirin

Yeah, I want to underline that five year sentence. We're talking about Leavenworth Federal Prison. No soft sentence.

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Jonathan Hafetz

No. So I'm saying there was a maximum you could have gotten. Well, we'll talk about being really close. And so while he doesn't go to jail, he pays a real price. And I think, you know, you quote this, in your book, you're calling David Halberstam the journalist that Ali was the only person of fame that gave up anything to protest Vietnam and the only person.

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Jonathan Hafetz

But, you know, it's hard to think of someone famous who really actually, you know, put his.

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Dave Zirin

You know, I mean, when you think of actors, for example, who really put themselves out there, I mean, we're talking about primarily white actors. I'm thinking of people like Brando. I'm thinking of people like, I mean, Jane Fonda certainly did pay a price, but it's so interesting, like other actors who stood up, who were part of that counterculture, they just became New Hollywood because of the generational divide in this country.

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Dave Zirin

Jane Fonda certainly did pay a price in terms of her image and amongst a lot of people in the United States for going to Hanoi and sitting in a live helicopter with the North Vietnamese Army with that, you know, look of joy on her face, something she's apologized for since ad nauseum. But it'll never be enough for people.

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Dave Zirin

But let's also remember, when we talk about Jane Fonda paying a price was that she would win two Oscars, you know, for Klute, although this might have been done after Kloots, but then for coming home to an explicitly Vietnam film. And then, of course, you know, she picked her roles after that until she decided she didn't want to do it anymore.

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Dave Zirin

And I just, you know, really feel like I because I feel like you've also seen this today when Megan Rapinoe took a knee after Colin Kaepernick, you know, and God bless Megan for doing that. But we also have to acknowledge and Megan does acknowledge this because she's amazingly thoughtful. Colin Kaepernick gets kicked out of the NFL. Megan Rapinoe does subway commercials.

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Dave Zirin

And there is a difference and gets to be part of the most out and famous lesbian couple in the United States and beloved lesbian couple in the United States with Sue bird. And so you're talking like, I think, a really different set of rules when it comes to protests.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah. I mean, and Ali, I mean, he loses, right? The suspension, he loses. I said three years. It's close. It's about three and a half years of his prime fighting. Right. Ali would be you know, he went on to, you know, other glories, and some, you know, things that weren't so glorious in his later fighting career. He would never be as good again as he was.

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Jonathan Hafetz

I mean, these were his prime years.

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Dave Zirin

We need to talk about this because it's very important, because Ali's death and the last decades of his life, you know, was a period when his beautiful voice and his beautiful way of using language were robbed from him because of Parkinson's disease. That was certainly aggravated dramatically by repeated blows to the head and before. This is so crazy.

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Dave Zirin

Before his suspension in 67, he was the fighter who nobody could hit. And when afterwards, according to the statistics, no one got hit more. And he discovered, to his own surprise, that he had a chin made of concrete. He didn't know when he tried this new tack. He's like, I might just get knocked out. But it turned out like he had a head, like a like a ram and was able to, you know, be this incredible fighter who had have these really long, really grueling fights where the other fighter would effectively punch themselves out, Ali would rope a dope, and there was no rope a dope before the suspension didn't exist in need it.

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Dave Zirin

And I say all this because Ali's original plan, and who knows if he would have stuck with this because, as Robert Lipsyte said, all these athletes get addicted to the warm that's what Bob says, you know, so who knows if this is true, but it is true. When he started his boxing career that he said he wanted to retire at 30.

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Dave Zirin

And you know, when you get all your opportunity to make money taken away from you at age 25, then that's a tremendous financial blow as well. And it undercut his ability to retire young, which is what he said he wanted to do. Although I do say that with the caveat that no one wanted more attention than Ali, and who knows if he actually would have done that.

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Jonathan Hafetz

I mean, the other issue was always right. Even when he started making the money was always he was incredibly generous and not always made the best business deals. Maybe if he married his last wife, Lonnie, earlier, and she took control of his businesses, he might have had the financial cushion to. But but you're right. I mean, it's time to go back and see just how great he was in those fights and what was lost.

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Jonathan Hafetz

And he was still a great fighter, but he was different, as you said, and just to stick on the induction refusal to be inducted for a moment, I mean, what made this act right so significant? And how was it tied up with the currents at the time in the country?

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Dave Zirin

I mean, the currents are exactly what made it so significant because you had this burgeoning movement against the war. And it was still when he stepped out against the war, it was still viewed culturally as white college students who were cowardly. That was the way it was couched. And you also had this black freedom struggle that was operating on a parallel track to the anti-war movement that was growing.

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Dave Zirin

You had incredible people in the civil rights movement, particularly thinking of people like Bob Moses of SNICK, who was able to make those connections very quickly between war at home and war abroad. And racist genocide abroad, racist oppression at home. But what you had also was then who? I mean, who is Bob Moses? Honestly, you know, I mean, but here's Muhammad Ali, the most famous athlete in the country who, you know, not consciously at all, but who joins the nation, which was like telling white people to go to hell and then joins the anti-war movement by refusing the draft.

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Dave Zirin

So all of a sudden you have the famous famous person in the country, arguably with one foot in each of these camps that were running on parallel tracks. And so there was an audience for him in both camps that meant and support for him in both camps, and it was part of something larger that was taking place. But he played, I think, a real role in pushing it, of getting these two movements to be intertwined as they became by the late 1960s.

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Jonathan Hafetz

And he is out there in a way like kind of alone, or there's not a lot of people out there. There's the backlash. And eventually, eventually you say things catch up. I mean, you have like with Doctor King, kind of later on, after Ali making these types of connections.

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Dave Zirin

And Doctor King, when he was before he made his famous Riverside speech connecting the war at home and war abroad, he would reference Muhammad Ali. People would say to him, how can you talk about Vietnam? You should stick with domestic issues. And he was like, well, as Ali shows us, they are connected. So that kind of a reference point is also very important to understand.

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Jonathan Hafetz

So for in the meantime. Right. And you know, before he comes back and before he leaves, it sort of celebrates way iconic status. He's almost sort of in the kind of wilderness, if you will. He's got money problems. He's banned from boxing, can't fight home, can't fight out of the United States. And he has a legal challenge. And it had, I think, two sort of components, right.

00;18;25;10 - 00;18;46;14

Jonathan Hafetz

One was that the claim that he was exempt from military service as a conscientious objector, based on his religious beliefs, that goes to the Supreme Court. And there was a separate challenge, which was to his suspension from boxing based on discriminatory treatment, that is, his license got suspended. But licenses of other boxers who had criminal convictions, including violent felonies like Sonny Liston, did not.

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Jonathan Hafetz

So how did these legal challenges play out? And what happened at the Supreme Court?

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Dave Zirin

Well, I mean, for this, people should see the incredible documentary The Trials of Muhammad Ali, because it's actually kind of complicated. And frankly, you could probably do better at articulating the legal aspect. You certainly would be better than I would. But what's clear about that film is the legal justification for his conviction to be overturned. I believe somebody in the film says it was like a piece of paper.

00;19;18;03 - 00;19;44;10

Dave Zirin

It was a big nothing, a loophole, and really it was something to put forward more because the justices really wanted to clear the decks and not have Ali go to jail for five years. I mean, the final vote was unanimous on the Supreme Court, while a previous vote, I believe was deadlocked. But that was some time earlier. And it was that sense of where is the movement, what is happening to this country.

00;19;44;10 - 00;20;08;23

Dave Zirin

The division ends. And as we see today, the Supreme Court is a political body, not a judicial one, as the founders intended. And so there was this sense of being like, okay, how do we clear the deck? And so his lawyer, who I believe was named Tom Pratt in Maker, wrote this incredibly thin justification as it was described in the film.

00;20;08;23 - 00;20;32;14

Dave Zirin

And then it was described legally connected to the religious aspect, which was always kind of specious. But that is actually part of Nation of Islam dictates that every member is a preacher, every member is a religious official. So. So with that pretext, he got free. It's so funny. The film, the way they explain it is actually really interesting from a legal perspective.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah, I definitely would recommend seeing that. And they said it, it's, you know, and I was sort of the, you know, view at a superficial level. It's unanimous. Right. So it comes out looks like it was, you know, sort of like, you know, just happy very swiftly. Easy was never going to be an issue. But it was really close.

00;20;48;03 - 00;21;03;03

Jonathan Hafetz

Like it goes up to the Supreme Court one time and it looks like, you know, I think they weren't even going to hear the case, which meant, because the lower courts had voted, the appeals court had voted to affirm the conviction. That would have been it. But Justice Brennan gets them to, you know, to look at it.

00;21;03;10 - 00;21;21;08

Jonathan Hafetz

And then, you know, no one thinks he's got a claim, but it's a sort of a technicality. They find out the solicitor general says there's, Muhammad Ali is he wasn't the target. He's overheard on wiretaps, whether FBI surveillance, wiretaps, maybe that would have affected it. So they find an excuse, they send it back down. Same result. Like they say, the judge says, Rogers, it doesn't matter.

00;21;21;12 - 00;21;32;29

Jonathan Hafetz

It goes back up, and it looks like the court's going to affirm until this is exactly as you said. The law clerk says, hey, wait a minute. Maybe there's something to this religious objection.

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Dave Zirin

Once the legal clerk craton maker, right like.

00;21;35;17 - 00;21;58;08

Jonathan Hafetz

That. But basically the idea was right. You had to be completely anti-war in the way sort of. You look down superficially at the Nation of Islam. It was just like selective opposition. You know, they would fight a kind of holy war. And what I found was that if you dug deep, that wasn't real, that was just sort of like more rhetoric and there wasn't really an actual selective opposition was something that wasn't going to come to pass.

00;21;58;10 - 00;22;15;26

Jonathan Hafetz

And then that sort of got put in court to rethink it. And while they didn't have enough votes to reverse on that ground, they found, exactly as you said, another technicality that the Justice Department wasn't clear in its, it wasn't clear what ground, we had been denied the exemption on. And so they're unanimous and by this time.

00;22;15;26 - 00;22;39;04

Jonathan Hafetz

Right. And then what you're saying is Ali is already back in the boxing world because New York State has lifted his suspension. So I think it was like happening as he was. I think the court heard the case the second time when the fight was with Frazier. The the fight in the century was about to happen and then decided it like afterwards, which, you know, at that point, I don't know, things had changed a lot.

00;22;39;04 - 00;22;46;08

Jonathan Hafetz

So it would have been pretty hard for Ali to go to jail in 71, right? As, kind of a political issue. Right?

00;22;46;11 - 00;23;08;21

Dave Zirin

Absolutely. And also, I mean, it becomes about commerce, too, because it wasn't just called the fight of the century as a marketing tool. You know, like the war by the Shaw, the duel by the pool. You know, this was a thing because Joe Frazier, it was the only time in history that there was a heavyweight championship fight where both fighters were undefeated.

00;23;08;24 - 00;23;30;26

Dave Zirin

And so this question of who is the champion became a political question. And how you judge that. And so it had this inexorable historical flow where it's like, okay, how do we make this happen? Legalities aside, you know, because sometimes pop culture trumps, pardon the expression, the legal world.

00;23;30;28 - 00;23;41;23

Jonathan Hafetz

And so. Right, you got the commercial aspect and it's hard, you know, to go back and imagine just quite how big an event this was. We're talking like kind of Super Bowl, Super Bowl magnitude almost. Right.

00;23;41;23 - 00;23;46;11

Dave Zirin

And you know who, life magazine hired to take photos of the fight.

00;23;46;14 - 00;23;48;11

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah I do, Frank Sinatra.

00;23;48;13 - 00;23;52;10

Dave Zirin

Old blue eyes. I mean, that's a big fight.

00;23;52;13 - 00;24;01;27

Jonathan Hafetz

And I heard he couldn't even get. I don't know, I'm wrong, but I thought, like, he couldn't even get, like, a front row seat. Right. And this is, you know, that's how, like, anyone who was. Everyone was there, right? I'm sorry. Anyone? There was anyone who.

00;24;01;27 - 00;24;04;23

Dave Zirin

Was anyone couldn't get tickets.

00;24;04;25 - 00;24;17;09

Jonathan Hafetz

So you've got the commercial as well. But things have changed too politically. Right by then. Right from, you know, Ali refuses to be inducted in 67. That were four years later. There's been kind of a sea change on Vietnam, right. And that affects things, too.

00;24;17;11 - 00;24;46;06

Dave Zirin

And he becomes a symbol instead of resistance. As the 70s begin to a symbol of reconciliation. I mean, I say this to people now, especially my son, because we are living in such, shadowed times. And I try to explain to him that historically, things can also change very quickly. And I say, look at Muhammad Ali, who one year is actually condemned by the city council of his hometown and Louisville, Louisville.

00;24;46;08 - 00;25;13;21

Dave Zirin

And then just two years later, I believe it was you have one of the main avenues in the city named Muhammad Ali Avenue. So to go from condemnation to, oh, actually, we're going to name a street after you or is something else also, I mean, the difference between Richard Nixon, like bugging him and ordering the FBI to surveil him constantly and then being on an enemies list to Gerald Ford, inviting him to the white House.

00;25;13;23 - 00;25;33;18

Dave Zirin

I mean, so it's like as the country came together, the acceptance of Ali was symbolic of that. And I went to Louisville once to speak at the museum, the Ali Center. It's not just a museum. It's an amazing space, is what it is, honestly. And, have you ever been there, Jonathan?

00;25;33;25 - 00;25;37;03

Jonathan Hafetz

I've not, but after doing this, I want to make a trip down.

00;25;37;05 - 00;26;06;00

Dave Zirin

I got to tell you, Louisville is not just about awesome whiskey and barbecue that the museum is actually worth it's own trip by yourself for a weekend like, it's like that, you know? And, it's just special. And I had high expectations and crush them. But I remember being in a cab going there and, the cab driver had wild right wing stuff all over his car like it was his cab.

00;26;06;02 - 00;26;25;02

Dave Zirin

Vietnam that, you know, all kinds of stuff. He said some things to me in the lead off that were really disgusting. He was very valuable. And I had to say to him, hey, you know, I'm going to the Muhammad Ali Center right now. I mean, you know, that's Louisville's most famous son. What do you think about Muhammad Ali?

00;26;25;04 - 00;26;53;11

Dave Zirin

And he goes, I loved Ali. I said, you loved Ali. You fought in Vietnam. He refused the draft of Vietnam. And he said, yeah, but unlike those damn hippies, he was brave. And I just thought it was so interesting how his mind works in coming to that, because and also, I certainly don't know if this was the case, but Ali had a way of, when he met you to make that experience feel very, very singular.

00;26;53;14 - 00;27;13;27

Dave Zirin

Maybe it was a magic trick. Maybe it was a wink. Maybe it was a smile and a little, you know, a little of this, you know, and all of that. And this is, you know, before iPhones or whatnot. But he would have been the guy to speak about all of these things to you, whatever it may be. And he would have taken a million photos with that iPhone.

00;27;13;29 - 00;27;31;01

Dave Zirin

So, you know, that's what it's all about. You know, I mean, he loved people. He cared about people. He was an extrovert of the first order. And I think that, particularly in Louisville, just earned him so much goodwill over his lifetime.

00;27;31;03 - 00;27;49;14

Jonathan Hafetz

He what comes across, you know, when you look, you know, what the movies and the documentaries and reading about them is just how charismatic and authentic he was. There's just an authenticity to him, which I think resonates across, you know, like whatever. People have different views. We're talking a lot about our lives, you know, how is perception in America?

00;27;49;14 - 00;28;14;09

Jonathan Hafetz

But he's a global figure, right? And I think one of the key moments in Ali becoming this global icon is the rumble in the jungle. Right? The 1974 fight against George Foreman in Kinshasa, Zaire. Ali back from his suspension, regains the heavyweight championship. And this is captured brilliantly in the Oscar winning documentary When We Were Kings. So what was the significance of this fight win?

00;28;14;09 - 00;28;47;23

Dave Zirin

The significance of The Rumble in the jungle was that here was Ali as the great underdog, because George Foreman was seen as so fearsome at this time, coming off his Olympic victory in 1972. I mean, he was seen as like two Sonny Liston, and he was much bigger than Liston, much stronger than Liston, much more chiseled. Definitely. Then Liston, didn't have the habits of Liston and was certainly much, much younger than Liston, who wasn't sure of his own age when he fought Ali.

00;28;47;25 - 00;29;07;23

Dave Zirin

And people thought Liston was going to hurt young Cassius Clay so badly. They actually had an ambulance waiting outside with the route to take him to the hospital. So the fight, and that wasn't for the boxers. That was just for Ali. It was. It was outside his locker, for goodness sakes. Imagine if you knew that, how much confidence that would give you.

00;29;07;25 - 00;29;27;18

Dave Zirin

But not only was Foreman so young, I believe he was 24. Ali at this time is, I believe, 33, which is at that time was seen as old for a boxer. You know, I gets old for a boxer now, but people just fight longer now. So the age difference had and Ali at this time was in a state of embrace with America.

00;29;27;20 - 00;30;06;21

Dave Zirin

Certainly black America entirely, and liberal white America, certainly. And he didn't have all of black America in 1967. They were very split on him, and he certainly didn't have all of white liberal America, as the trials of Muhammad Ali shows so clearly. But by this time he at least had those two groups in his camp. And as expressed by Howard Cosell in the documentary, there's just profound worry that he was going to go over to what was then called Zaire and get his head knocked off, get really hurt, have it be such a disaster for him personally that Ali's not just the thought of victory, but the thought of survival becomes a part of the

00;30;06;21 - 00;30;30;11

Dave Zirin

narrative of the fight. Then layer on to that, that George Foreman was somebody who, at the 1968 Olympics, after he won the heavyweight gold the day after Tommie Smith and John Carlos raised their fists on the track and field medal stand, Foreman grabs a little American flag and waves it and bows to all four sides of the ring.

00;30;30;13 - 00;30;59;02

Dave Zirin

Foreman denies that had anything to do with Smith and Carlos. Sometimes it doesn't matter whether you deny it, you know the symbolism. Is the symbolism true or not true? Like, as we're doing this conversation, if I can reference something contemporary people might know about Kendrick Lamar's Super Bowl halftime show and the fact that somebody took out a flag that said Sudan and Gaza in the background, we now know that that person was acting as an individual.

00;30;59;04 - 00;31;22;02

Dave Zirin

Some people don't believe that person and think it was part of the operation of the halftime show. I believe it was the actions of the individual, because I've seen an interview with him and his sincerity cracks the screen and his accountability cracks the screen. But it doesn't matter either. It was part of the show whether it was playing not planned improperly.

00;31;22;04 - 00;31;51;20

Dave Zirin

That's irrelevant to the statement that it makes. And that's what George Foreman was. And so that immediately set up this dichotomy of Ali freedom fighter, George Foreman reactionary. So that was a part of it. And then you have to layer on top of that, of course, the presence of Don King as promoter and the presence of Zaire and Mobutu Sese Seko and having the fight in Zaire, and you have Mobutu, it was a monster.

00;31;51;20 - 00;32;28;23

Dave Zirin

But let's leave that aside. When you drove in from the airport, there was a big sign that said Zaire, where Black Power is a reality. You know, they did a concerts with people like James, as the documentary shows so well, James Brown, UMass master, who was at that time exiled from South Africa. I mean, so you're talking about not just a fight, but something that was legitimately Pan-Africanist black in the most international sense and the fact that the people on the ground, of course, famously would the kids would just, you know, Chase Ali when he would jog the chant, Ali boom!

00;32;28;23 - 00;32;49;17

Dave Zirin

I yeah, at Ali's funeral, I saw this and heard this and recorded it with my own, you know, my own eyes and ears. As the coffin went through on the limo, people were chanting, Ali boom! I, you know, I mean, think about that. White people, black people, they were chanting Moeen Ali, kill them, kill him. Right. Tell him that's what they're chanting.

00;32;49;20 - 00;33;14;21

Dave Zirin

But obviously it represented so much more. It represented the connection between these kids in The Champ, the Pan-Africanist ideal, Ali's charisma so much. And then of course, you know, obviously can't tell the story of this without pointing out the G. Ali one awesome, huge upset, beautifully captured on film and when we were king. So beautiful. And it was, it was incredible.

00;33;14;21 - 00;33;37;11

Dave Zirin

It was incredible what took place. If I could give one little fight detail that the film shows so clearly, it's just such a great detail, is that Ali, instead of rope a doping against Foreman, came out and threw right hand jabs and the right hand jab, if you're a righty, is considered the ultimate disrespect for the other fighter because the hand has to travel farther.

00;33;37;13 - 00;33;50;27

Dave Zirin

And so it's like saying I'm so fast you can't even block a right hand jab. And Ali connected with it like repeatedly in the first round. I know this because I interviewed Foreman, like made him utterly incensed.

00;33;51;00 - 00;34;10;11

Jonathan Hafetz

So interesting because it's known, you know, the fight is, as you said, I've kind of known for the rope a dope in the later rounds, but it's so interesting. And then the sort of, yeah, the way the narrative was. And I'm just thinking, based on what you're saying, it's, you know, Ali as depicted in the film, he's walking through the streets around his training camp in Kinshasa or outside Kinshasa.

00;34;10;19 - 00;34;27;23

Jonathan Hafetz

People of all ages coming on cheer him on with my Ali. He's the hero there. And foreman, you know, so he keeps to himself. And when he's training or, you know, getting ready, he gets a cut over his eye and and they say he can't fight. So they've got to delay the fight. And Mobutu says they won't let him out of the country.

00;34;27;25 - 00;34;38;27

Jonathan Hafetz

He's so uncomfortable there. They don't think he'll come back. So it's this other thing where Foreman's just sort of, like, keeps to himself and Ali is out there. So it's like this other contrast between you know, Ali just was eating it all up huge.

00;34;38;29 - 00;35;07;08

Dave Zirin

Exactly. And that's the thing about Ali and what I said earlier about him being the first pop cultural mass media sports figure. His ability to have an instinct for the crowd was unbelievable. And I think Zaire is the most beautiful high point of that because it does involve children, you know, it does involve the masses in a way that's captured on film and that's very beautiful.

00;35;07;11 - 00;35;27;04

Dave Zirin

So and I think you also see it in the trials of Muhammad Ali when he's been like debating college students, you know, at Harvard or whatever. And, outside on a microphone, you see that same ability to, to work the crowd. But obviously, you know, that's footage that's not widely seen. And the Zaire footage is so iconic.

00;35;27;06 - 00;35;49;23

Jonathan Hafetz

One of the key parts about it, or one of the in terms of him in television, is this special relationship that he has between the with the legendary sports journalist and broadcaster Howard Cosell, who played in the Ali film by Jon Voight. Ken Burns's documentary had some incredible footage of, you know, many of their interviews. What was behind this special connection between the two, and why was it so important?

00;35;49;26 - 00;36;08;10

Dave Zirin

Well, I really recommend that people check out the book The Sound and the Fury by Dave Shine, and that's where you can learn about this in great detail. But you know the fundamentals of it is that you had two people who love to talk and two people who had a sense of the moments, in a sense of the media.

00;36;08;13 - 00;36;52;29

Dave Zirin

And you also had two people who were often felt like outsiders. Howard as a Jew from Brooklyn, Ali, of course, as a as a muslim nation of Islam, anti-war. I mean, he had so many reasons to be to be an outsider in the world of boxing. And Cosell not only had a sense of injustice, of what was being done to Ali and was angry about that injustice, and not only had a platform to express that injustice in very, very articulate terms, he also built trust with Ali himself at this difficult time, because there wasn't anybody else in the white media and frankly, black media to at this time that was willing to really stand with

00;36;52;29 - 00;36;57;10

Dave Zirin

Ali the way Cosell did. And that's what really earned the trust.

00;36;57;13 - 00;37;19;05

Jonathan Hafetz

One critique of the Ali biopic, the Will Smith or Will Smith plays Ali, is I tends to eulogize Ali, who was in many respects a complex person. And this is also pointed out in other documentaries as well as in the various books on Ali. And there are two things that stand out in particular. One is the abandonment of Malcolm X, his close friend and mentor.

00;37;19;10 - 00;37;40;06

Jonathan Hafetz

When Malcolm is, breaks with the Nation of Islam. And the other was Ali's taunting of the rival with Joe Frazier, which bordered on racism. You you note this in your book, Ali saying only the KKK is rooting for Frazier and basically turning Frazier into the white guy. So how do you kind of assess these things in terms of Ali and his legacy?

00;37;40;08 - 00;38;05;03

Dave Zirin

I mean, I view it as a human being and fallible, and too many people have treated him as if he's, you know, Malcolm X with boxing gloves on like this thoughtful thought through political person, you know, but Malcolm was in jail and read the encyclopedia and engaged in debate constantly. And he honed his skills when there was nothing else to do but do that.

00;38;05;06 - 00;38;32;08

Dave Zirin

And Ali was somebody who was an 18 year old gold medal winner, you know, really figuring a lot of this stuff out on the fly. And so, you know, you're talking about somebody who is very human, very improvizational with his politics. He was a humanist of the first order. I think that's where so much of this came from, from him with a dash of some of his father's frustrations about, you know, being and feeling stunted in this world.

00;38;32;10 - 00;38;57;06

Dave Zirin

How much more was his mother, though, in personality than his father, who could be quite mean and cruel? No one would ever call Ali cruel. No one has any story of him raising a hand to somebody, particularly a woman, you know, which which his father did to his mother. That just needs to be said. But, you know, he was on the fly trying to figure out, do I stay friends with Malcolm or do I offend the Nation of Islam, which, controls my money?

00;38;57;08 - 00;39;18;23

Dave Zirin

And b might have some people who legitimately try to kill me. And then Malcolm dies. But the next year that Ali learns. So he learns of this about Malcolm's struggles and 64 most clearly at the famous one night in Miami after he wins the fight where he stays up eating ice cream with Jim Brown, Malcolm X and Sam Cooke.

00;39;18;25 - 00;39;54;03

Dave Zirin

But then it's like these choices are impossible choices. And I wrote an article about this, about this eulogy. Given that at all these funerals that I couldn't believe, it didn't get more coverage, it was Malcolm X's daughter. I believe it was Elisha. He had several daughters who gave a speech about Ali, sending them money and giving them emotional support on the secret during the years after Malcolm died, and that relationship that was built that she was forbidden to talk about until his death, his human, he made mistakes, treatment of women needs to be discussed.

00;39;54;03 - 00;40;17;13

Dave Zirin

Treatment of his first wife needs to be discussed. When I say treatment of women, I mean much more like adulterous stuff. And I gotta say, would not be the first boxer to, or celebrity, you know? So it's like his human mistakes. Of course not as saints, you know, and not a statue as he was made late in life.

00;40;17;16 - 00;40;45;26

Dave Zirin

And, I just take it as as that, you know, I, I use this Ken Burns quote about a much more complicated figure, Jim Brown, at the start of the book I wrote about Jim Brown. And if you can wait one second, I'll even read it to you. I really do think it's beautiful. Here we go. We live in an age of media culture which says if this person isn't perfect, they're no longer a hero.

00;40;45;29 - 00;41;03;20

Dave Zirin

And we then lament the absence of heroes. But the Greeks defined heroism as a negotiation between a person strengths and weaknesses. And then he says, sometimes it's not a negotiation, it's a war.

00;41;03;22 - 00;41;24;20

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah. I mean, he sort of becomes this saint like figure, you know, he was human. I mean, one critique of the movie is that it does present, a little bit more of a sanctified, whitewashed version biopic. Right. There's amazing documentaries, but the, Michael Mann Ali biopic starring Will Smith is the sort of main Hollywood treatment. What was your take on the movie overall?

00;41;24;22 - 00;41;51;05

Dave Zirin

I thought the movie performed The Impossible and that it made Muhammad Ali's life boring. I think when every time someone asked me, should I see Ali, I say, please see instead The Trials of Muhammad Ali by Bill Siegel. Please see instead, when we Were kings, see Ali as Ali. Don't see Will Smith do an Ali impersonation. Will Smith nominated for an Oscar.

00;41;51;05 - 00;42;22;21

Dave Zirin

I thought he was terrible. Because what do you do when you're not as charismatic as this icon, who you know is charismatic? Now, I'll tell you, I think Ali's done much better, is portrayed much better in films like One Night in Miami, film directed by Regina King, or a play I saw about Muhammad Ali with his great play about the in Dallas, about the relationship between Muhammad Ali and Stepin Fetchit, who was a part of his entourage in the early mid 60s after he joined the nation.

00;42;22;23 - 00;42;51;10

Dave Zirin

It's just very odd and he explored that relationship. When you have an unknown play, Ali, I think it helps. It's still not as good as seeing Ali and no one's as charismatic, but it helps because you're sort of seeing less of an impersonation and more of, somebody entering the body of somebody else. Will Smith is Will Smith, and pinning back his ears doesn't make a difference.

00;42;51;12 - 00;43;16;01

Dave Zirin

I thought the film was banal or banal, as they say. I thought it was trite. I thought, like you said, it's sanded out all the most interesting edges of his life. Yeah, I thought it was just a giant, giant egg. And the fact that it got nominations for Voight as Cosell, I mean, that's embarrassing to me that Voight got the nomination for that performance.

00;43;16;03 - 00;43;41;10

Dave Zirin

I'm much better. Cosell was actually John Turturro in the television film about the start of Monday Night Football. That's actually a much better Cosell. But yeah, so I really did think the film was terrible. Jamie Fox was terrific as Bandini Brown. I'll say that. That was before we knew that Jamie Fox would be Jamie Fox. And I think he kind of steals the movie because everything else is just.

00;43;41;13 - 00;44;00;16

Dave Zirin

It's just terrible to me. I mean, I shouldn't say terrible. It's not terrible, you know? And if someone said, hey, I saw Lee, I would say, okay, that's cool. What did you learn? You know, so, you know, it's not Heaven's gate, for goodness sakes. I don't want to make it sound like that, but as someone like me, who's who, the bar is extremely high.

00;44;00;18 - 00;44;05;24

Dave Zirin

If you're going to make an Ali biopic, it did not come close to clearing that bar.

00;44;05;27 - 00;44;29;23

Jonathan Hafetz

And there's so much actual footage in these various documentaries to that's where you can you can see Ali. Right. You know, picking up on that, you've written that, you know, we shouldn't ignore Ali was a powerful and dangerous political force. And then that it says something damning about the country that he was only truly embraced after he lost his power of speech, stripped of that beautiful voice.

00;44;29;25 - 00;44;58;20

Dave Zirin

Yes. And that's something that's certainly been said by others as well. It really does say something damning once he's turned into a postage stamp, once he's turned into a statue, he becomes in some ways dead before he's dead. Because and I really want to qualify that because he did have a wonderful life with his wife. He got very involved with religion, very close to his children, very close to his grandchildren.

00;44;58;23 - 00;45;28;16

Dave Zirin

But he had difficulty with both speech and movements to very, very deep degree, almost like a prisoner in his own body. And so before he was imprisoned by his body, he was that dangerous person. And afterwards the sanctification really began in some ways, because I think in the typical, you know, narcissistic American way, there was kind of like a feeling that, oh, Ali, who we love is like this for our sins because we didn't understand Vietnam.

00;45;28;16 - 00;46;12;09

Dave Zirin

We didn't understand the frustrations with the integrationist approach to the civil rights movement. You know, so you get a lot of white, liberal self-flagellation on that. And instead of just looking that he actually did have a joyous life. But it's also true that by being robbed of his voice, they got an Ali they could appreciate. And we can't ignore to me, the reality that it's just so similar to people like Doctor King and Malcolm X, where once safe in death, they're able to be reinterpreted and turned into things that they would have really objected to in their lives or would have been bitterly angry about in their own lives.

00;46;12;11 - 00;46;36;04

Dave Zirin

So I think Ali had to suffer a lot of that without the ability to really mount a campaign to push back against. Oh, and I would be so remiss if I didn't say that. Yeah, maybe he couldn't move. Maybe he had trouble speaking, but he was certainly a part of putting the Ali Center together in Louisville, and that is a gift that will be there for us forever.

00;46;36;07 - 00;46;55;07

Jonathan Hafetz

We have the image of him in the lantern 96 was great. But there is, I think, to what you're saying, you know, where he goes to the white House. President Bush again, president Bush pins the Presidential Medal of Freedom on him during the height of the Iraq War and the war on terror. I think things that Ali would have spoken out of with his voice.

00;46;55;10 - 00;47;11;01

Dave Zirin

No, no, I mean, I absolutely do think that's the case. But that is what it is. That was what it was. You know, so I just think we have to take him in its totality and also understand that there are many different Muhammad Ali over the course of his life.

00;47;11;04 - 00;47;31;24

Jonathan Hafetz

Boxing today is kind of a shadow of its former self. Right? It's not even on network television. So it does make it a little bit harder anyway, just to think how large Ali and Ali's fights loomed over popular culture. So just how significant was boxing back as a sport back in the 1960s, 1970s?

00;47;31;27 - 00;47;53;26

Dave Zirin

I mean, it was up there with the biggest sports in the country and its champions specifically, and particularly at the heavyweight level, where the most famous athletes in the country, you're like, as someone put it, you're like the king of masculinity if you're the heavyweight champion. And so to have the king of masculinity say hell no to war, that in and of itself was a big deal.

00;47;53;28 - 00;48;09;16

Jonathan Hafetz

So you've written a lot about sports and resistance in the United States. For example, in your book The Kaepernick Effect Taking a knee, Changing the World. So looking back, what's all these legacy for sports and sports figures and why is he missed today?

00;48;09;18 - 00;48;33;20

Dave Zirin

The legacy is of someone who risked and even gave up everything in terms of athletics, fame, money because he believed in a bigger and a higher cause. That's the legacy. And when you see somebody like Maya Moore leave the WNBA at the height of her powers because she was fighting to free a man who she would then end up marrying because of an unjust and injustice.

00;48;33;23 - 00;48;52;18

Dave Zirin

Jailing of this imprisonment of this person, you know, that to me, felt very oddly like this idea that you're going to walk away from something that you've been doing your whole life because you do feel a kind of higher calling to do something for the world. Colin Kaepernick felt a higher calling and risked his career by taking that knee.

00;48;52;20 - 00;49;11;12

Dave Zirin

And that's the legacy, because give up several times that last season that Kaepernick had, he would walk into the locker room with all the cameras there. He'd be wearing a Muhammad Ali shirt, you know, so it's this idea, this thing. But he criticizes you. You could just say, oh, what are your opinions about Muhammad Ali? You know, it's like, what would you have said then?

00;49;11;15 - 00;49;21;25

Dave Zirin

You know, what do you say now? Those are very, very important and very powerful talking points for people who want to continue the tradition of sports and resistance.

00;49;21;28 - 00;49;28;18

Jonathan Hafetz

And for Ali, it was performance, but it wasn't performative. You know, like he laid it on the line.

00;49;28;20 - 00;49;31;21

Dave Zirin

Very well put performance, but not performative.

00;49;31;24 - 00;49;47;28

Jonathan Hafetz

Dave, I want to thank you so much for coming on the podcast talking about Ali. I encourage listeners to check out the especially the documentaries about Ali and all the books written about Ali and Green Day's fantastic book. It's just a it's a Rich world. And thanks for sharing your experience.

00;49;48;00 - 00;50;01;00

Dave Zirin

Yeah, I'd be remiss, though, if I didn't say that the best book, in my opinion, about Muhammad Ali is called Redemption Song. Muhammad Ali, in the spirit of the 1960s. That's the one I recommend to folks. Most of all.

00;50;01;03 - 00;50;12;15

Jonathan Hafetz

Thanks, because there, I think something like 800 or so. It's good. You know, in navigating the Ali literature, it's good to have good to have your back. Well thanks again, Dave. It's been great chatting with you.

00;50;12;17 - 00;50;16;05

Dave Zirin

Oh, it's been wonderful, John. Thank you so much.