00;00;00;22 - 00;00;35;13

Jonathan Hafetz

Hi, I'm Jonathan Heifetz, and welcome to Law on Film, a podcast that explores the rich connections between law and film. Law is critical to many films, film and turn tells us a lot about the law. In each episode, we'll examine a film that's noteworthy from a legal perspective. What legal issues does the film explore? What does it get right about the law and what does it get wrong?

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Jonathan Hafetz

How is law important to understanding the film? And what does the film teach us about the law, and about the larger social and cultural context in which it operates? Our films today are The Caine Mutiny from 1954 and The Caine Mutiny Court Martial from 2023. The 1954 film The Caine Mutiny is based on Herman Wilkes bestselling Pulitzer Prize winning novel of the same name.

00;00;59;15 - 00;01;29;05

Jonathan Hafetz

The film, which was directed by Edward Demetric and produced by Stanley Kramer, portrays the fictitious events on board the USS Caine, a Navy destroyer minesweeper in the Pacific during World War Two. Executive officer. Lieutenant Stephen Marek, played by Van Johnson, leaves the seemingly unstable Lieutenant Commander Philip Francis Krieg, captain of the USS Caine, of his command. After Krieg, played memorably by Humphrey Bogart, endangers the ship and its crew during a cyclone.

00;01;29;12 - 00;01;56;04

Jonathan Hafetz

The ship returns to the U.S. and is court martialed for mutiny. He's represented by Navy lawyer Lieutenant Barney Greenwald, played by Jose Ferrer, who, despite disapproving of Maverick's actions, believes Marek was misled by the ship's communication officer, Lieutenant Tom Keefer, by Fred MacMurray into overturning Greig's command. Marek is acquitted after Greenwald effectively places we go on trial by exposing colleagues erratic and paranoid behavior.

00;01;56;06 - 00;02;29;14

Jonathan Hafetz

The Cane Mutiny court martial from 2023, directed by the late William Friedkin, is based on books adaption of his own 1952 novel For the stage. In contrast to the 1954 film The Cane Mutiny, Court Martial covers only the court martial trial. The cast includes Jack Lacey as Maverick, Jason Clarke as defense attorney Greenwald, Monica Raymond as Prosecutor Lieutenant Commander Kathryn Shayla, the late Lance Reddick as Captain Luther Blakely, the presiding judge, and Kiefer Sutherland in a phenomenal performance as weak.

00;02;29;15 - 00;02;55;14

Jonathan Hafetz

The films are not only fantastic courtroom dramas, but also explore larger themes around military justice, ethics, and morality. With me to discuss these films as Eugene Fidell, Eugene Fidell, or Jean as I know him, is a visiting lecturer in law and senior research scholar at Yale Law School. In addition, he is of counsel at the Washington, DC firm Feldman and Lifer LLP, where his practice focuses on military legal matters.

00;02;55;17 - 00;03;26;00

Jonathan Hafetz

After his graduation from Harvard Law School, Jeanne served in the US Coast Guard and attended the US Naval Justice School in Newport, Rhode Island. Jean is the co-founder of the National Institute of Military Justice. He's litigated numerous cases in the military justice system and federal courts, including as defense counsel for Bowe Bergdahl, the US Army soldier who was court martialed for desertion after leaving his post while serving in Afghanistan and being captured by the Taliban.

00;03;26;02 - 00;03;53;21

Jonathan Hafetz

Jean's books include Military Justice Cases and Materials by Carolina Academic Press, and Military Justice A Very Short Introduction by Oxford University Press. I've had the pleasure of knowing and working with Jean for many years, starting after the 9/11 attacks, with the representation of Guantanamo detainees, where Jean was the go to person for any question about how the US military justice system worked in military law.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Jean, it's great to have you on the podcast.

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Eugene Fidell

It's my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

00;03;58;08 - 00;04;11;25

Jonathan Hafetz

So let's start with a very basic question. Tell us a little bit about what a court marshal is, structure basis and how it differs. Well, how it's similar to in differs from a kind of regular civilian criminal proceeding.

00;04;11;27 - 00;04;37;29

Eugene Fidell

A court martial is a specialized tribunal. It's a criminal court. Its jurisdiction is confined to criminal offenses under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, otherwise known as the UCMJ. Many of the rules are set forth in a very thick book about the size of the Old Bronx telephone directory, the manual for Courts Martial, and the new edition has just come out.

00;04;37;29 - 00;04;58;12

Eugene Fidell

The 2024 edition, which I'm sure all listeners will want to get a copy of, and they can get it for free online. Basically, as I said, it's a criminal proceeding. It results in a criminal conviction. In many respects, it's just like a trial in federal court. And in some critical respects, it's unlike a trial in federal court, for example.

00;04;58;13 - 00;05;28;27

Eugene Fidell

Similarities. The same burden of proof applies. The government has to prove its charges beyond a reasonable doubt. The strict rules of evidence apply. There are lawyers on both sides, but there are also major differences. For example, the presiding officer is not a judge enjoying the protection of life tenure in the military justice system. Trial judges have only three year terms of office, which many people, myself included, believe is not sufficient to provide the necessary independence.

00;05;28;28 - 00;05;57;02

Eugene Fidell

In addition, there's no grand jury requirement so that you can be brought to trial by a court marshal basically on the basis of a preliminary hearing conducted by a judge advocate, a judge advocate, or simply a uniformed lawyer. There is an appeal process, I should add, by the way, that the accused or the defendant in a court martial has a right to a free lawyer, even if the defendant can pay for a lawyer himself or herself.

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Eugene Fidell

Those lawyers are uniformed, but you can bring a civilian lawyer if you want. The prosecutor is also going to be a uniformed lawyer after trial. The appeal process kicks in, and there are several levels of appeal in each branch of the service. There is something called the Court of Criminal Appeals. The Navy and the Marine Corps share one, as do the Air Force and the Space Force.

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Eugene Fidell

After that, appeals can go to the US Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces, which is a court of civilians. Although a number of the judges turn out to be retired military or people who have had long military experience. After that, the defendant or appellant can seek review by the Supreme Court of the United States. And I'm happy to say that only recently Congress passed and President Biden signed a measure that gives military personnel, for the first time, equal access to the Supreme Court, along with the access enjoyed by all federal district court criminal defendants, all state court criminal defendants, and even the people at Guantanamo.

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Eugene Fidell

So that's a short version.

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Jonathan Hafetz

That's a great summary. And just on the decision makers in, I guess, let's say, a general court martial, which is the most typical court martial and the one that we have in both movies, who's making the decisions in the case itself.

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Eugene Fidell

Today, there is a military judge who presides, and we'll get to that, I'm sure, in our conversation, as well as something like a jury. Personally, I believe the military board or panel, the so-called members of the jury, are very much like jurors, except that they're not required to be a jury of peers. The jury is by default composed of commissioned officers, enlisted people who are tried before a court martial have a right to request a certain representation on the court martial itself.

00;07;48;25 - 00;08;10;01

Eugene Fidell

And they often do exercise that right. But what you're not seeing, except in capital cases and the military justice system can impose the death penalty. And I'll say a word about that in a minute. Except in death penalty cases, the jury doesn't have to be 12. And it doesn't have to be unanimous again, except in death penalty cases.

00;08;10;01 - 00;08;40;08

Eugene Fidell

So there are some significant differences. The people on the jury, they're not randomly selected off the voter registration list or the motor vehicle list. They're handpicked according to statutory criteria like experience, education, judicial temperament, that kind of thing. So it's importantly different from the conventional jury that we're so accustomed to. The Uniform Code of Military Justice does provide for the death penalty that can only be imposed by a general court martial.

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Eugene Fidell

And although a number of death penalty sentences and capital senses have been handed down, the last military execution was in 1961. This is not a bloodthirsty jurisdiction. Cases often linger for years and years and years, much like in the civilian criminal justice system. It's a system that is very slow to judge a death sentence and even slower to execute anybody.

00;09;07;04 - 00;09;13;23

Eugene Fidell

And interestingly, executions require the affirmative personal decision of the president of the United States.

00;09;13;26 - 00;09;34;15

Jonathan Hafetz

Well, let's talk about mutiny. So you need which is the crime, the alleged crime at issue in the films, in the book writing centers around this. And when we talk about mutiny here, it's not sort of like this image of a violent uprising of sea men with cutlasses or rifles. I mean, this is like fairly eye patches. I know, I know, eye patches.

00;09;34;16 - 00;09;59;29

Jonathan Hafetz

This is a basically a kind of almost a bureaucratic leaving of the captain, captain flick of his command on the vessel. Right. This is described as, I understand, the most serious of all maritime and military crimes. William Winthrop, in his landmark treatise Military Law and Precedent, says of the acts which the Articles of War make punishable the principal mutiny has commonly been characterized as the gravest and most criminal of offenses known to the military code.

00;10;00;06 - 00;10;22;14

Jonathan Hafetz

That's a reference to the Articles of War, which is the old version of the U.S. military law. Now, what you referred to before as the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So this is a very serious crime. And as I understand it, in the the Navy, the U.S. Navy had objected or it concerns about the use of mutiny in the title of the 1954 film, as well as for showing the captain of a ship is mentally unstable.

00;10;22;17 - 00;10;41;24

Jonathan Hafetz

And there were revisions to the script over about 15 months of negotiation. I think it was also part of the condition for the Navy cooperating and giving the production team access to the planes, aircraft carrier, destroyers, combat boats, as well as Pearl Harbor and the Port of San Francisco and Naval Station Treasure Island for location shooting. It really is shot on location.

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Jonathan Hafetz

The 1954 film And so the 54 film opens with this there's never been a mutiny in a ship of the US Navy.

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Eugene Fidell

That's not true, actually. But. But we can go on.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Okay, well, I'll come back to that. I'll definitely want to hear what you have to say. So. And then Lance Reddick, who's plays the presiding judge in the 2023 film, elaborates on how severe this crime is. What can you tell us about mutiny and why is it such a serious crime?

00;11;06;12 - 00;11;34;24

Eugene Fidell

It's a serious crime because obedience to commanders is critical in the administration of any military unit. If you don't have obedience, all you have is an armed mob, and you cannot achieve the objective of a military unit if there isn't discipline. And the locus classic of discipline is the people not try to oust the person in charge. So it's kind of simple.

00;11;34;24 - 00;12;05;20

Eugene Fidell

And actually, if you go back to Herman Melville's wonderful novella, Billy Budd, the whole setting there is an era of anxiety about mutiny in the days of sailing ships, sailing ships where they didn't have nuclear power, they didn't have steam engines, they were on their own, and they would go off and sail around the world and sometimes be gone for years under very arduous conditions where people would die of scurvy or, you know, a variety of mishaps.

00;12;05;20 - 00;12;33;29

Eugene Fidell

Poor navigational charts led to endless groundings and collisions. It's no wonder that captains of naval vessels had to rule with an iron fist. It was an environment in which obedience was essential, unquestioning obedience. This all gets back to USS Kane. Discipline was ensured by the means such as the tattered nine tails. That is the safe flogging which the U.S. Navy didn't get rid of until well into the 19th century.

00;12;34;01 - 00;13;01;07

Eugene Fidell

So basically effect an insurrection, to use the current term aboard a naval vessel was a dreadful, a dreadful outcome. Mutinies tended to be famous. The mutiny on the bounty, for example, very evocative and, you know, engaging tale. There's a current book about a ship called the Tiger, another Royal Navy ship. There was, in fact, the contrary to, I gather, what's in the foreword to the 54 film.

00;13;01;07 - 00;13;29;28

Eugene Fidell

There was, in fact, a mutiny on a US naval vessel called the Somers. So MERS, the brig Somers was on patrol in the Caribbean. There was what struck the CEO of the ship as the beginnings of a mutiny, and as a result, a midshipman on board was hanged. Famously, this is Midshipman Sinclair. The problem was that Mr. Sinclair's father was the Secretary of War.

00;13;30;00 - 00;13;52;12

Eugene Fidell

Needless to say, this landed like a lead balloon when word of it got back to Washington and a major investigation was conducted, and it was not a high point for the Navy. I was once involved as counsel in what certainly looked like a mutiny. There was a disturbance, racial disturbance on a US Coast Guard cutter that tied up a Governor's Island.

00;13;52;16 - 00;14;17;13

Eugene Fidell

That was broadly referred to as the Gallatin Mutiny. Coast guard Cutter Gallatin had at one point seen the officer with the deck disarmed, and that was treated quite seriously until ultimately the government's case fell apart for other reasons. So mutiny is a very serious matter. The penalties are severe, potentially. And the good news is that they're extremely, extremely rare.

00;14;17;14 - 00;14;51;15

Eugene Fidell

And actually, while I'm at the store, I'll mention that actually the US Navy and all the services have really quite a good record for discipline. These are well trained, well behaved forces. The court martial load is way down. The number of courts martial held in the course of the year is much less than it used to be. Part of that is related to the downsizing of the military generally, but part of it also is effective leadership, effective training, effective selection of personnel and the kind of values that we look for.

00;14;51;18 - 00;15;00;06

Jonathan Hafetz

It's really interesting you say that about how it evolved, where ships were gone for a year or two years or more, and a world unto itself. I'm thinking out of the book, The Wager, the David Graham book.

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Eugene Fidell

That's the book I was thinking of. Thank you.

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Jonathan Hafetz

It'll be interesting to see what Martin Scorsese he does with that. If they were just trying to go through Straits of Magellan and they were just basically off for years. Yeah, there is kind of attention because as a result, the commander has to have this very broad authority which can be abused. Let me ask you, what's the legal issue in the movies?

00;15;20;00 - 00;15;27;12

Jonathan Hafetz

Is there a defense that's available to Merrick for taking over the ship? What does the case turn on legally?

00;15;27;14 - 00;15;57;18

Eugene Fidell

Well, a person who tries to supplant the lawful commander of a naval vessel is rolling the dice. The navy regulation that lies at the heart of both movies provides that in some limited circumstances, officers of a naval vessels crew, the members of the wardroom can supplant the commanding officer. But needless to say, given what I already said about the need for discipline, this is really playing with fire.

00;15;57;23 - 00;16;25;18

Eugene Fidell

This is not for the faint of heart to undertake to exercise the right that regulation confers. It's a regulation that that makes perfect sense because you can have a captain of a ship, the warship, who may be disabled, may be operating with a mental disability, and physical disability, may reveal traits of character that are sort of incompatible with performing the kind of extraordinary responsibilities that the CEO of a naval ship.

00;16;25;18 - 00;16;55;06

Eugene Fidell

Even in this era of instantaneous communication, the internet, satellites and so forth. There's still is a sense in which the captain's word has to be law on a naval vessel, among other things. The stakes are very high because we live in an era where internet relations are fraught, where a misstep can provoke hostilities, and where, among other things, the closest adherence to international law, the law of armed conflict and so forth has to be assured.

00;16;55;07 - 00;17;04;12

Eugene Fidell

So all that said, it's a safety valve. The regulation is a safety valve. That's necessary, but you invoke it at your peril.

00;17;04;14 - 00;17;19;20

Jonathan Hafetz

And the risk is in the 1954 film, it was a capital crime, I think, marking the 2023 film was facing like 15 years in prison if he was convicted. But you probably you don't know. There's no way to know beforehand. Right. So it's a you're rolling the dice.

00;17;19;23 - 00;17;43;07

Eugene Fidell

You are rolling the dice, and I forget what the authorized punishment is or was. But traditionally, military court martial punishments are not built the same way federal sentences are. In other words, there are no sentencing guidelines at the moment in courts martial. So it's punished as a court martial made direct up to a maximum provided either by Congress or by the president in the manual for courts martial.

00;17;43;12 - 00;17;48;03

Eugene Fidell

But in any event, you're facing quite draconian penalties.

00;17;48;06 - 00;18;10;24

Jonathan Hafetz

In the films and on the USS Kane. Maybe it was a gray area, but there seemed to be some basis for what Merrick does in relieving week of his command. I mean, there seem to be two issues which are related, and one, Cui was paranoid, behaved erratically. There's a question about whether he had a mental disability. The Navy doctor psychiatrist testified.

00;18;10;24 - 00;18;36;16

Jonathan Hafetz

No. And then two. Relatedly, how did that impact his command? I mean, he clearly there are multiple examples, right, in the film where in both films where Cui is behaving arbitrarily, the incident with, for example, when they show a movie that he's not told about it, he bans movies on board. He denies, I think, water to use for showers in the middle of like a heat wave, or when it's very hot.

00;18;36;23 - 00;18;45;06

Jonathan Hafetz

The most famous one is with the strawberries, where there was apparently like a quarter strawberries. That was taken, it turns out, by people that worked in the mess hall. In the.

00;18;45;06 - 00;18;46;26

Eugene Fidell

Galley. You mean in the galley?

00;18;47;04 - 00;19;03;22

Jonathan Hafetz

In the galley? Taking in the galley. Thank you. Jean. And klieg thinks that someone had made a duplicate key. And he goes into turns the ship upside down to try to find this, even though he'd been tipped off that basically the people in the galley had eaten the extra quart or whatever it was, the strawberries. But he's clearly acting arbitrarily.

00;19;03;22 - 00;19;07;09

Jonathan Hafetz

And what a anyway, a layman's view would seem arbitrary.

00;19;07;12 - 00;19;25;19

Caine Mutiny Dialogue

I suppose you're wondering why I call this meeting. As you all know by now, we had an excellent dessert for dinner tonight. Ice cream and frozen strawberries. Well, about an hour ago, I sent Whitaker to the pantry to bring me in on the porch, and he came back with the ice cream on us. But he said, sorry, there ain't no more strawberries.

00;19;25;22 - 00;19;47;19

Caine Mutiny Dialogue

Now, gentlemen, I do not believe that the officers of this ship consumed a full gallon of strawberries at dinner tonight. And I intend to prove it. If any of you gentlemen an explanation for the quart of missing strawberries, I can say no doubt someone else finished them for us as of now. Gentlemen, you are all the point of the Board of Investigation to find out who's responsible for this theft tomorrow.

00;19;47;22 - 00;19;58;23

Caine Mutiny Dialogue

You are the senior member. You mean in the morning, sir. Now, Mr. Mac, according to my watch, does not mean in the morning it means oh 147. I expect a full report by oh 800.

00;19;58;25 - 00;20;17;15

Jonathan Hafetz

And that comes to a head when the ship is in, cyclone or a typhoon, a storm. It looks like the survival of the ship and its crew is at stake. And he seems frozen, right? He can't act or he's not making the right decisions. And so Merrick, who's kind of been prime that quick, is unstable by Keefer.

00;20;17;21 - 00;20;28;11

Jonathan Hafetz

The communications officer takes command. So this seems to be, I mean, arguably a pretty good example or a pretty good place to invoke the safety valve of quote unquote, mutiny.

00;20;28;14 - 00;20;58;09

Eugene Fidell

Remember that the first film was made in 1954. Wouk wrote the book in 52. That was only seven years after the end of World War Two. So viewers and everybody involved in the film, they were personally aware, maybe directly, certainly indirectly, but acutely aware of the war and wartime conditions. And World War Two was the genuine article. This is not, you know, steaming off the Gulf of Aden or something like that.

00;20;58;11 - 00;21;16;25

Eugene Fidell

Wouk actually served in the US Navy, and he served on a ship called the USS Zane, which became the USS Caine. Quite how that came about, I don't know, but that is the history of it. And he was a junior officer on the ship, and obviously he was writing a book.

00;21;16;27 - 00;21;18;19

Jonathan Hafetz

I exactly like Kiefer.

00;21;18;21 - 00;21;57;25

Eugene Fidell

Right, exactly. And there are some humorous aspects, you know, about you keep for his wry view of the world and the Navy. I think it's important to recognize the special circumstances in wartime. This was a shooting war on a global basis, and the idea of having somebody in command who really might be risking his personnel as well as the unit, the command as a whole, losing a ship in a typhoon, not a good thing, or endangering people on shore in a landing operation.

00;21;57;25 - 00;22;45;25

Eugene Fidell

Not a good thing. So was Quigg crazy to the extent that the regulation required as a kind of cumulative judgment, you could easily add up the circumstances. For example, Quick's growing catatonic, apparently out of fear is very disturbing. Of course, people in command, even when there isn't a shooting war going on, sometimes do aberrant things. Some people who are given command of floating units, naval vessels, may vent their aggressions by becoming screamers, literally screaming at the bridge, over one thing or another, or, you know, it's not unheard of for people to take an exaggerated interest in minor uniform discrepancies.

00;22;46;02 - 00;23;11;27

Eugene Fidell

You're wearing white socks with that uniform. You know, they're supposed to be black socks or you've got a thread loose. There's actually a term for it. It's not particularly woke, but it's called an Irish pennant. If you have a loose thread on your uniform. So there are people who can become petty tyrants. Sometimes that comes with the territory, other times it becomes pathological and how to distinguish the one from the other is the challenge.

00;23;12;04 - 00;23;32;03

Eugene Fidell

I will say that I once represented a man who was an officer on a Coast Guard cutter in World War two, and he told me a story about strawberry ice cream, and he wasn't making it up. I mean, you know, these things happened. That was a great luxury, I'm sure, in the middle of the Mediterranean in his case.

00;23;32;03 - 00;24;07;24

Eugene Fidell

But there was an asset of greatly prized foodstuff on a warship. Now, what's the role of psyche at your expertise? If you're trying to bring a commanding officer within the terms of the Navy regulation, you'd certainly want to be able to make a cogent case, a very strong case, in fact, that the person being ousted as CEO commanding officer really was suffering from some mental defect, not necessarily, by the way, suffering from a defect that would qualify as a as an insanity defense, for example.

00;24;07;24 - 00;24;33;19

Eugene Fidell

That's not the issue knowing right from wrong, but it's endangering the vessel. And obviously that judgment has to be balanced against the need for discipline and the need for a stable regime on board the ship. The psychiatric evidence, particularly in the second film I thought was, amusing. One of the government's witnesses had been in the Navy for five months.

00;24;33;21 - 00;24;54;07

Eugene Fidell

That was it was not a great selection of an expert witness. I thought, but I thought that the makers of these movies that a quite good job. But of course, the piece de résistance, the classic evidence is the evidence provided by Captain Cook himself. What? The case had come out any differently had there been no psychiatrists and just Quigg?

00;24;54;10 - 00;24;55;04

Eugene Fidell

What do you think.

00;24;55;11 - 00;25;18;02

Jonathan Hafetz

In the within the world of the film, I think that the defense is able to obtain the acquittal because they put Quigg effectively on trial and they show how unstable, unbalanced could become. Here's a clip of Humphrey Bogart unraveling his queen while rolling the steel bearing ball. It's kind of the iconic image from the film.

00;25;18;05 - 00;25;35;09

Caine Mutiny Dialogue

I'm afraid the defense has no other recourse than to produce Anderson Harding. Now, there's no need for that. I know exactly what he'll tell you. Lies. He was no different from any other office in the wardroom. They were all disloyal. I tried to run the ship properly, but the book. But they fought me at every turn. The crew wanted to walk around with their shirttail hanging out.

00;25;35;09 - 00;25;55;15

Caine Mutiny Dialogue

That's all right. Let them take the tow line. Defective equipment. No more, no less. But they encourage the crew to go around scoffing at me and spreading wild rumors about steaming and Shackleton, and then a whole yellow stain. I was to blame for Lieutenant Merrick's incompetence and poor seamanship. Lieutenant Merrick was a perfect officer, but not Captain Quick.

00;25;55;18 - 00;26;18;01

Caine Mutiny Dialogue

Above the strawberries. That's that's where I had them. They laughed at me and make jokes. But I proved beyond the shadow of a doubt. And with geometric logic that a duplicate key to the water. My box did exist. Now to produce that key. If they hadn't pulled the cane out of action. I know now they were only trying to protect some fellow officer, and naturally I I can only cover these things from memory.

00;26;18;03 - 00;26;26;24

Caine Mutiny Dialogue

If I've left anything out. Why? Just ask me specific questions and I'll be glad to answer them one by one.

00;26;26;26 - 00;26;33;14

Jonathan Hafetz

Now here's Kiefer Sutherland in his role as Queen becoming unraveled on the stand.

00;26;33;17 - 00;26;55;24

Caine Mutiny Dialogue

Oh yes, the movie business. Okay, no respect for command. That was the whole trouble with that ship. The movie operator who had a disrespectful manner. Anyways, started the movie without waiting for the arrival of the commanding officer. Out of that whole ship's crew, officers and men. Did one person stand up and call a halt or even notice that the captain wasn't present?

00;26;55;27 - 00;27;18;17

Caine Mutiny Dialogue

I miss those movies more than they did. I ban them and by God, I do it again. What was I supposed to do? Start to start issuing them all letters of commendation for this gratuitous insult to the commanding officer? It's not like I took it personal. It's the principle. The principle of respect for the command. And that principle was dead when I came aboard that ship.

00;27;18;17 - 00;27;24;12

Caine Mutiny Dialogue

And I brought it to life, and I nagged and I bats, and I hollered, and by God, I made it stick while I was captain.

00;27;24;15 - 00;27;54;06

Jonathan Hafetz

I agree that the defense was able to win by exposing weak as unstable, and kind of demonstrating through the Queen's own testimony how trying and potentially dangerous his personality had become. What's interesting is, or another interesting thing is that the judge in and this in the 2023 version, the judge, the presiding judge played by Lance Reddick, gives a stern warning to the defense counsel as he goes after weak and tries to put Quigg on trial.

00;27;54;08 - 00;28;14;20

Caine Mutiny Dialogue

Let me remind everyone of the serious nature of the issues in this line of questioning and the implications involved from the earliest days of our service, the worst charge that can be levied against the Naval Service officer, especially the commanding officer of the vessel, is that he displays cowardice or negligence in the face of danger to his ship or crew.

00;28;14;23 - 00;28;19;25

Caine Mutiny Dialogue

Counsel and the witness are here with caution that they are treading on dangerous and unprecedented grounds.

00;28;19;25 - 00;28;47;12

Jonathan Hafetz

Here is this as Lance Reddick, Lance Reddick character says, is the defense counsel treading on dangerous and unprecedented ground or suggesting or questioning, not just quick sort of mental stability, but also his potential cowardice in the face of danger. And if so, if this is treading on dangerous and unprecedented ground, doesn't this conflict with the right to a zealous defense?

00;28;47;12 - 00;28;53;14

Jonathan Hafetz

If the lawyer and get chewed out for kind of going after the kind of main witness the prosecution is being witness?

00;28;53;16 - 00;29;19;21

Eugene Fidell

I'll start with the headline. The headline is that my own view? And I watch the movies on consecutive days. The two versions. My headline is that I thought the 2023 version was an act of vandalism. I thought it was a highly derivative of and poor copy of the original. I had much the same feeling, by the way, about the remake a couple of years ago of Oklahoma!

00;29;19;23 - 00;29;50;27

Eugene Fidell

On Broadway. It's a danger of seeing something that somebody else has already done. On the other hand, Hollywood has done this repeatedly over its century of existence, so I'm barking up the wrong tree there. But there's a lot wrong with the trial to begin with. And a look at the 2023 version military justice practitioners would not take this as a serious attempt to depict the administration of military justice in this era.

00;29;50;29 - 00;30;20;01

Eugene Fidell

The gentleman in the middle of the bench acted like a judge, but wasn't wearing robes and had only four other people on the panel. Now, in real life, that officer would have been seated separately at a bench and the voting members of the jury, the panel would have been in a jury box, and they would have been, at least at the time, five not for.

00;30;20;04 - 00;30;50;29

Eugene Fidell

So there was a lot wrong. And the comment that you quoted sort of cautionary note, you know, how dare you impugn the courage of this fine officer and so on. And so forth. It struck me as really over-the-top and sort of simplistic. Sometimes things are better left unsaid. Turning to the members, the panel included a man who looked like he was about 90 years old, who had 14 or 15 rows of ribbons, and was I think, a rear admiral.

00;30;51;02 - 00;31;24;16

Eugene Fidell

Who did he seem to be? You wouldn't have a retiree serving on a court martial for a lieutenant commander. I mean, it just it wouldn't happen. There was another person on the the panel that I thought, you know, it just didn't didn't sound right. So that struck me as quite unrealistic. Equally unrealistic was the lawyering. There was a woman prosecutor called the trial counsel who was presented as ruthless and shrill and unrealistic.

00;31;24;21 - 00;31;52;25

Eugene Fidell

I mean, people who prosecute, you know, that some people are more aggressive in the courtroom than others. We all know that it happens. But this is off the charts. And it became a kind of comic book version of a trial. One thing I was baffled by was that Barney Greenwald in the second movie, somebody maybe he points out or somebody else points out that eight Navy lawyers had refused to represent Quigg.

00;31;52;28 - 00;32;28;14

Eugene Fidell

What's that about? You get assigned to a case or under the UCMJ, you can request a lawyer by name, and if the person's reasonably available, they have to make that person available. But how does it come about that Navy lawyers, uniformed lawyers get to say, no, I don't I don't feel like doing that. The only way you could do that is if you were disqualified for some reason, or if you had some moral deep moral objection, or if you had some vision of the case that was utterly incompatible with the client's desires for how the case should be litigated.

00;32;28;17 - 00;33;08;01

Eugene Fidell

But the notion that all eight Navy lawyers who were approached to handle the case said, no thanks, I'm going to do in a wall case instead, or whatever, or another drug case or a sexual assault case. That's just ridiculous. And you lose a film loses credibility when you see that. And the other thing is the idea that Barney Greenwald in the 2023 version, who's practicing law somewhere besides, 911 or shortly after 911, well, I'm going to put down by law practice, and now I'm going to go into the Navy and become a fighter pilot, a jet fighter pilot at age 30 something, let's say, who could make this up?

00;33;08;01 - 00;33;32;16

Eugene Fidell

I mean, there's a fictional element and fiction is fine. I like fiction, but, you know, give me a break. It's got to bear some resemblance to the reality that you're purporting to describe. The other thing, this is a small point, but anybody who's been in the service knows that people are expected to spend some time in the barber's chair and very few people in this cast seem to have visited a barber recently.

00;33;32;17 - 00;33;42;04

Eugene Fidell

I mean, seriously, I mean, how much planning and technical advice does it take to say, you know, Mr. Defense Counsel, get a haircut.

00;33;42;06 - 00;33;43;05

Jonathan Hafetz

Or wear your.

00;33;43;05 - 00;33;45;16

Eugene Fidell

Uniform properly?

00;33;45;19 - 00;33;50;10

Jonathan Hafetz

They all had good haircuts in the 1954 movie. Everyone was very clean shaven, I think.

00;33;50;11 - 00;33;51;26

Eugene Fidell

Right, right, right.

00;33;51;28 - 00;34;20;26

Jonathan Hafetz

I will say that in the in the 50s and there was the same theme of the defense counsel resisting the prosecution. Right. But, Barney Greenwald, played by, who was a friend, the original version says he'd rather be prosecuted and agrees to defend Merrick only because basically, he thinks he's more of a fool than a mutineer, and realizes that Merrick fell under the sway of Keefer, played by Fred MacMurray, who changed him up and persuaded him that he was a paranoid and had to be overthrown.

00;34;21;00 - 00;34;44;24

Eugene Fidell

Well, all I can say is, in my three years, seven months and eight days on active duty, nobody ever said, if you don't want to do this case, you don't have to do this case. And it wasn't a question of whether I liked the client or the accused or not. A lawyer doesn't have to love his client, but there's really quite a lot of unreality to some of the professional interactions, I will say.

00;34;44;24 - 00;35;08;00

Eugene Fidell

Speaking of Barney Greenwald, by the way, at the end, and it's frankly more effective in the 54 version than in the 2023 version. There's a party at the hotel in San Francisco, and Greenwald comes in and gives a speech about the Queens of the world, how in peacetime, the queens of the world getting paid, you know, really chintzy salaries in the peacetime Navy.

00;35;08;00 - 00;35;35;19

Eugene Fidell

And they kept the Navy going. And then we call on them when there's a shooting war that's probably the most potent, dramatically potent moment is setting aside, you know, Craig on The Witness stand that has the deepest moral dimension. What happens at the end of a case? Does everybody go out and have a drink, or do you have to be drunk in order for the light to go on to say, well, there's a moral dimension to this theatrical performance that we just went through.

00;35;35;21 - 00;35;59;13

Eugene Fidell

And by the way, the thing about courts martial is that they're inherently theatrical. This is not to take anything away from Mr. Friedkin or from Herman Wouk or any of the other people who brought us these movies. I don't think you can make a bad movie about a court martial. Why is that? Because it's so exotic. People are in costume when the minute the curtain goes up.

00;35;59;13 - 00;36;24;10

Eugene Fidell

So to speak, they're in costume. They're speaking a different language. There's customs and rituals involved. Ritual. It's all inherently theatrical and it's the individual against the state in a way that's even more potent than the normal criminal prosecution, because the state is there not only as the keeper of order and society, it's the state holding a sword, the state in war.

00;36;24;15 - 00;36;40;13

Eugene Fidell

And so the moral and ethical dimensions are turned way up in a wartime court martial setting. That's why I said it's hard to think of one that's not powerful. But Breaker Morant, for example, is one of the great movies. And there it is again.

00;36;40;18 - 00;36;42;16

Jonathan Hafetz

Which I covered with Michelle Parodi, actually.

00;36;42;20 - 00;36;43;23

Eugene Fidell

Oh, great, great, great, I.

00;36;43;23 - 00;37;12;09

Jonathan Hafetz

Didn't agree, I agree, and I agree with you, Jeanne. I think the closing scene was the last. It's the final scene in the 2023 version where post-trial, there's the party celebration party for the acquittal of America, and for Kiefer's book, which is now You've Been sold. He sold his book. It's not quite the final scene in the 1954 version, because after the celebration, we see that the ship goes out again with the former commander DeVries wheelchair over and people going on kind of back starting to circle again.

00;37;12;09 - 00;37;19;19

Jonathan Hafetz

But it's a powerful scene, and I actually think the freaking version does a really good job with it. I'll play the clip now from the 2023 version.

00;37;19;22 - 00;37;42;29

Caine Mutiny Dialogue

Suddenly. Seems to me if I wrote a war novel, I would try to make a hero out of Old Yellow Stain. You see, Mr. Kiefer, while I was studying law and you were writing short stories, and Willie Keith was playing on the fields of Princeton. Why all that time? These these old birds we call regulars these stupid, stuffy pricks were standing guard, are now fat, dumb and happy country.

00;37;43;06 - 00;38;05;25

Caine Mutiny Dialogue

Of course they were doing it for Doe, same as anybody does anything. The question is, in the last analysis, I mean, what do you do for Doe even me where advancing out for little careers. So when 911 happened and so many of us rushed to join up to fight those assholes, to crash those planes into the Twin Towers, but there were already a lot of guys ready to do that old yellow stain.

00;38;05;29 - 00;38;21;24

Caine Mutiny Dialogue

And guys like him already on station, ready to go. And these old line pros, they may not be up on the latest video game, but they know how to get a tough job done. And they were standing by and they were ready to do it. Well, the rest of us was still trying to. No shit from Shinola Arkansas.

00;38;21;24 - 00;38;43;14

Caine Mutiny Dialogue

Come on, let's just enjoy the Dennis sham. Steve. You guilty? Of course, you're only half guilty. I mean, there was someone else standing very neatly out of the picture. The guy who started the whole idea. The Queen's dangerous paranoiac, who argued you into it? Six months of coined the nickname Old Yellow stain and pointed out the psychiatry books and article 1108 and kept on hammering it at you.

00;38;43;20 - 00;39;00;25

Caine Mutiny Dialogue

And wait a minute here. Oh, yeah? Yeah, Mr. Keefer. That's right. Yeah, I had to drag it out of Steve. Big dumb Polack tried to tell me it was all his own idea. He would know a paranoid from an anthropoid, but, you know, didn't you? Told him his medical log was a clinical picture of a paranoid terrorist guilty party.

00;39;00;25 - 00;39;21;26

Caine Mutiny Dialogue

It's you. If you hadn't filled Steve Merrick's thick head full of paranoia. An article 1108. Why you need a God queen to come north. Help him pull through to the south. The cane would have been yanked out of action. That is your contribution to the good old USA, my friend. Pulling a minesweeper out of the Persian Gulf when it was most needed.

00;39;21;29 - 00;39;39;23

Caine Mutiny Dialogue

I defended Steve Merrick because I realized the wrong guy was on trial, and the only way I could defend him was to murder for you. And I'm pissed off that I was put in that position. I'm ashamed of what I did. We deserve better serve this country for 21 years. So I'm not going to eat your dinner. Drink you wine.

00;39;39;25 - 00;39;41;19

Caine Mutiny Dialogue

I'll make my toast and go.

00;39;41;21 - 00;40;20;03

Jonathan Hafetz

And so it concludes with the attorney, Barney Greenwald, back toasting Kiefer and throwing his drink in Kiefer's face. And he's got two claims, right? That are clear. One, they had the wrong person on trial. That Kiefer, not Merrick, was the true author. I love the words author because books also the author of The Mutiny and then two kind of what you mentioned this underlying tension or what you call it between regulars, people like the queens of the world and the reservists or the careerist, and that really, the careerist element really becomes sharper in the 2023 version, where you have these people who are just kind of serving now, partly to kind of advance whatever careers

00;40;20;03 - 00;40;31;13

Jonathan Hafetz

they're in. And both films, I think, come out on the side of Queen deserved better, right? He serve the country and that there was some injustice done here. Do you kind of agree with that final takeaway?

00;40;31;15 - 00;41;06;03

Eugene Fidell

Yes, I do, I do, although ironically, if you look at the very last scene from the 54 movie, the one that you mentioned, where it turns out that the old CEO has returned, or that the old CEO has resurfaced as tender of a new ship. And there's this wonderful, wonderful scene where their eyes meet, and there's a kind of tone to the interaction that I thought was very special, particularly when you think back to the hilarious scene when that first CEO leaves and somebody is has violated rules by offering him a gratuity, namely a gold wristwatch.

00;41;06;09 - 00;41;10;21

Eugene Fidell

But he ultimately helps himself too. It's one of the ones that scenes in the movie.

00;41;10;23 - 00;41;13;09

Jonathan Hafetz

Because he says, I can't do it. It's against, you know.

00;41;13;09 - 00;41;14;17

Eugene Fidell

I can't do that.

00;41;14;19 - 00;41;18;16

Jonathan Hafetz

But he puts it to the side and then you see him, like walking off and pocketing the watch, right?

00;41;18;17 - 00;41;36;28

Eugene Fidell

And then here's this whole movie about violating a regulation. The other thing I think it would be remiss not to focus on For real, is the two versions do reflect dramatic changes in the Navy workforce. There were no persons of color in the work version. Not that I remember.

00;41;37;02 - 00;41;38;24

Jonathan Hafetz

Only as like the people who work the galley.

00;41;39;01 - 00;42;00;16

Eugene Fidell

Oh, right. You know, traditionally in the Navy, the galley staff, the mass cooks were black or Filipino and there were no women. So, you know, this is a dramatic change. The Navy has changed very, very, very considerably. Women are in position of responsibility. They're they're CEOs of warships. There are a lot of women in the Navy, JAG Corps.

00;42;00;22 - 00;42;18;22

Eugene Fidell

And there's no more racial discrimination that I'm aware of in assignments. I'm glad they did that. It would have been impossible not to do that, actually. But nonetheless, I'm glad they did it. That's a good thing. And they had to make some adjustments. They couldn't have remade literally remade the 54 version. It wouldn't have been true.

00;42;18;25 - 00;42;32;22

Jonathan Hafetz

No, those were good updates. Right. And they put Monica Raymond in, is playing the chief prosecutor and Lance Reddick as the presiding judge. So she's a woman. Lance Reddick, late, great. Lance Reddick was black. So that really does reflect more modern realities. And that was certainly very good to do.

00;42;32;24 - 00;42;55;28

Eugene Fidell

By the way, I will also say this. The 2023 version is set in a courtroom that looks like a salon out of Versailles. I have never seen a military courtroom. Even the Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces, which is a grand building that was built to house the DC circuit 125 years ago doesn't look like that with oil paintings on the wall.

00;42;56;00 - 00;42;58;13

Eugene Fidell

But I guess that's what makes Hollywood go around.

00;42;58;15 - 00;43;22;12

Jonathan Hafetz

You know, another the major update, right, was to shift the context from of the height of World War two. The campaign in the Pacific in the 1954 version to the sort of post 911 period where the ship, the USS Kane is patrolling the Persian Gulf, the Strait of Hormuz. At the time, it's the kind of more general kind of post 911 era, which feels a little bit different, right?

00;43;22;12 - 00;43;24;15

Jonathan Hafetz

I think the stakes seem somewhat different.

00;43;24;22 - 00;43;53;20

Eugene Fidell

Sure, the stakes are different in some way smaller, but the other thing is, and this is a sociological point about the the composition of the Navy, the Navy, all the armed forces relied very, very heavily on reservists and conscripts in World War two. We haven't had conscription since, I think, 1973. In this country, those of us who were reserve officers during the Vietnam War often felt that we were tolerated at best by the management.

00;43;53;27 - 00;44;16;08

Eugene Fidell

But, you know, I think things have changed from World War Two to when I was on active duty. And then from that time now, 50 something years ago to the present or to the post nine over 11 era in general, further change has occurred to the good, to the ill, I don't know. Personally, I think conscription is a good thing because it serves as a check on foreign policy and the kinds of things the country does.

00;44;16;10 - 00;44;26;17

Eugene Fidell

But the same basic things have changed. Some very, very basic things have changed about the US armed forces cannot be denied. And it does come through in these two snapshots.

00;44;26;20 - 00;44;43;01

Jonathan Hafetz

I want to go back for a minute to the prosecutor's closing brass, who's very tough. And after this is after a quick collapse on the stand, she's got kind of a real challenge in her closing here from the 2023 version. Is Monica Raymond playing the prosecutor in her closing remarks.

00;44;43;03 - 00;45;06;26

Caine Mutiny Dialogue

Can this court possibly endorse the president that a captain who doesn't please his underlings can be deposed by them, and then that the captain's only recourse afterward is to be placed at a witness stand in a general court martial to answer every petty gripe and justify all his command decisions to a hostile lawyer taking the part of his insubordinate inferiors.

00;45;06;28 - 00;45;25;20

Caine Mutiny Dialogue

Such a precedent is nothing but a blank check for mutiny. It is the absolute destruction of the chain of command. Whatever the verdict on the accused, I formally recommend that defense counsel Greenwald be censured by this court for conduct unbecoming an officer of the Navy, and that this reprimand be made part of his record.

00;45;25;22 - 00;45;46;27

Jonathan Hafetz

Two things here struck me. One is the idea that if you gave an acquittal was a blank check for mutiny, and then the other, which I think and I expect you're going to say was unrealistic. She makes the motion for defense counsel Jason Clarke to be reprimanded or basically calling into question Queen's Honor for conduct unbecoming an officer.

00;45;46;27 - 00;45;54;19

Jonathan Hafetz

So I assume that can't be the case, because that's so inconsistent with the kind of a basic, fair trial due process that characterizes today's military justice system.

00;45;54;21 - 00;46;18;16

Eugene Fidell

Well, first, on prosecutors or defense counsel who makes shrill arguments, the defense, you kind of hope for shrill arguments. Interesting. You know, let's let's see what this person has to say. But when a prosecutor does it, you run a real risk of losing your audience. And that struck me as not good work. And so obviously not good work that, you know, somebody should have talked to the writer and said, let's redo this scene here.

00;46;18;16 - 00;46;38;23

Eugene Fidell

This is not going to work. And as far as making a motion in midstream to have your adversary sanctions is ridiculous. Actually, there are things to do, which is have the person put on reports if they've manipulated evidence or something like that, or knowingly put a liar on the witness stand who lies and you know it, or withholding evidence.

00;46;38;23 - 00;47;05;21

Eugene Fidell

If you were prosecutor in violation of Brady against Maryland, this kind of stuff, there are ways to discipline lawyers. Emotion in the courtroom is not the way to do it. It's another one of those things where I just wish somebody had a technical advisor who was willing to say, don't do that because you're going to lose credibility. On the other hand, I'm talking as a person who's been involved with military justice basically over my entire career.

00;47;05;21 - 00;47;12;19

Eugene Fidell

It means a lot to me. And I'm not your garden variety person in the audience for this, so I may be hypercritical.

00;47;12;21 - 00;47;30;09

Jonathan Hafetz

The 1954 movie I think you were saying, Gene before is kind of a product of its period emerging out of World War Two, US in 1950s, kind of looking back at this period and concern about how the Navy is depicted. And so it Kiefer, the writer, it's not based on a book, but he was a writer.

00;47;30;13 - 00;47;32;23

Eugene Fidell

Wouk was having fun with us, writing. Kiefer.

00;47;33;00 - 00;47;57;07

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah, I think so too. I think so too. But the 1954 version did come in for some criticism, actually. And so Arthur Schlesinger assailed the plot and the story as kind of an attack on intellectuals. And there was sort of, sort of a backlash of this guy, you know, standing behind the Navy in its entry. You could imagine, right, in a different era, 70s Vietnam era or the New Hollywood, how they would have portrayed Kiefer.

00;47;57;07 - 00;48;13;13

Jonathan Hafetz

I mean, Kiefer could have been probably the hero. So it's kind of interesting. And then you look at the air that you got in 23 version, looking at that post 9/11 era, which in a sense is kind of like compadre with, and on the same page as the 1954 version and trying to basically say they went too far.

00;48;13;13 - 00;48;16;12

Jonathan Hafetz

Maric and Kiefer, they went too far in maligning weak.

00;48;16;15 - 00;48;23;03

Eugene Fidell

I think I would agree with that. I think that's a fair appraisal. But I wasn't aware that Arthur Schlesinger Jr had heartburn.

00;48;23;03 - 00;48;35;09

Jonathan Hafetz

Oh, it's so Jim, we've talked about how the 2023 movie and some of the problems in terms of accurately capturing a court marshal. Anything that stuck out to you about the 1954 version?

00;48;35;13 - 00;48;59;17

Eugene Fidell

Well, one thing that stuck out was some of the great actors that were in it. You know, Humphrey Bogart or for Pete's sake, with those wonderful close ups. I mean, not they were good. E.g. Marshall shows up, who later went on to star in The Defenders, one of my favorite shows, and turning to the 2023 version that I missed the part where the witnesses were sworn in.

00;48;59;19 - 00;49;08;16

Eugene Fidell

I don't remember anybody ever being asked, do you swear that the evidence you're about to give in this case shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth never happens.

00;49;08;19 - 00;49;24;28

Jonathan Hafetz

You know, it's interesting, Humphrey Bogart, right? He stars and squeak. And I do think Kiefer Sutherland did a great job. The 1954 version did have a real big cultural impact. I mean, it was the second most popular movie of the year. Humphrey Bogart landed on the cover of time magazine, so it did kind of resonate in a way.

00;49;24;28 - 00;49;45;12

Jonathan Hafetz

And so it's a movie about court martial, military justice, but it also can be viewed and has been viewed by some as one of Hollywood's trial movies. Right. It's ultimately a trial movie. The canine unit, community court martial, or a long engagement with Hollywood's approach to trials, and whether trials can be seen as a search for the truth.

00;49;45;18 - 00;49;50;05

Jonathan Hafetz

And these movies raise that question in the context of a court martial with the charge for mutiny.

00;49;50;12 - 00;49;53;26

Eugene Fidell

You want the truth? You can't handle the truth.

00;49;53;28 - 00;50;08;04

Jonathan Hafetz

Is that right? Right. To quote another famous quote of your, you know, in a civil action, the Robert Duvall character says, you want the truth? Find out at the bottom of the well. So, you know, I don't know if this film you think critiques trials as a means of searching for the truth.

00;50;08;06 - 00;50;33;22

Eugene Fidell

No, I actually don't think so. I think this is in the genre of military matters rather than trials as such. That's where I would put it. Things can be in both categories. There was a time that I used to include on my syllabus for military justice courses. The list of movies recommended movies. This obviously was one. A Few Good Men was another.

00;50;33;25 - 00;51;02;03

Eugene Fidell

One of my favorite movies is called The Last Detail, which is a movie starring Jack Nicholson. It's a fabulous movie that, unlike the 2023 Caine Mutiny, captured the way of life. Mr. Roberts was another great movie that captures a way of life. Of course, the way of life changes, everything changes. But the way of life in the US armed forces and the US Navy particularly, certainly has changed.

00;51;02;05 - 00;51;24;25

Eugene Fidell

In my own situation, I went into the service in 1969 and there were still ships in the fleet, as well as the Coast Guard fleet that had been in World War Two or that had been in service in the 30s. So in 1969, you could say it was even the end of World War Two. Sociologically, anyway, we owe a great debt to the filmmakers.

00;51;25;00 - 00;51;42;09

Eugene Fidell

Not every movie is going to be a grand slam, and I think that's particularly true where you're attempting to remake something that was a grand slam the first time out, and that takes great courage and conviction to do that. And I actually recommend seeing both of them.

00;51;42;11 - 00;51;49;15

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah, I do too, although it sounds like you are a larger fan by a good margin of the 1954 version, the Humphrey Bogart version.

00;51;49;19 - 00;51;52;17

Eugene Fidell

Only because I'm a nitpicker.

00;51;52;20 - 00;52;12;02

Jonathan Hafetz

And it does give you a little bit more of the life on the ship, which is one of the things I think Herman Wouk was trying to do and does. It is a Pulitzer Prize winning book, which, incidentally, goes on even beyond the 1954 movie, continues on where ever the communications officer becomes the CEO and actually starts behaving like Queen.

00;52;12;08 - 00;52;30;10

Jonathan Hafetz

And there's a kamikaze attack in the Pacific by the Japanese. The ship's in flames and Kiefer just locks us out and fails. And the Ensign Willie Keith has to take over. So kind of a full circle where Kiefer doesn't just get a drink thrown in his face, but actually is in the position. And, you know, it's not so easy being the CEO.

00;52;30;10 - 00;52;35;27

Jonathan Hafetz

I guess I've never commanded a ship. I didn't close to it, but I guess maybe that's what we'll be saying.

00;52;36;00 - 00;52;43;17

Eugene Fidell

Well, I applaud you for doing this. It's been fun to chat with you. Now I'm going to see if there's a little strawberry ice cream in the refrigerator.

00;52;43;19 - 00;52;52;14

Jonathan Hafetz

Hahaha! Make sure you don't take too much. Gene, thanks so much! It's been great having you on the podcast.

00;52;52;16 - 00;52;55;00

Eugene Fidell

My pleasure. Let's keep in touch.

00;52;55;03 - 00;53;22;06

Jonathan Hafetz

Hi listeners. On the last episode, I announced a new feature where you can write in with a question about a prior episode, and I'll do my best to answer it. Well, we've got our first question. Richard from Brooklyn writes in with a query about miracle on 34th Street, which we covered in the last episode. Episode 24. The movie includes an attempt to civilly commit Kris Kringle, the Macy's department store Santa Claus after a run in with the Macy's psychiatrist on the ground.

00;53;22;06 - 00;53;45;28

Jonathan Hafetz

Kris really believes in Santa Claus. The movie shows us a civil commitment hearing in New York City circa 1947, when the film was made. Richard wants to know how have civil commitment proceedings changed since then. Thanks for your question, Richard. Civil commitment proceedings have changed in multiple ways. Today. There are greater procedural protections which have been imposed by statute and judicial decisions.

00;53;46;04 - 00;54;08;18

Jonathan Hafetz

Due process now requires that the state prove that as a result of a mental illness, a person poses a danger to themselves or to others. Moreover, this must be proven by clear and convincing evidence, the second highest standard in the legal system. Additionally, over time, there's been a move away from institutionalization and a greater focus on outpatient treatment as a matter of policy.

00;54;08;25 - 00;54;28;23

Jonathan Hafetz

So in the film, Kris Kringle wins his civil commitment proceeding when the US Post Office, a branch of the US government, acknowledges Kris as the one and only Santa Claus by delivering letters to him that are addressed to Santa today, it's more likely the state wouldn't have met its burden and that this postal intervention would have been unnecessary.

00;54;28;25 - 00;54;50;04

Jonathan Hafetz

Richard, I hope that answers your excellent question. And remember, go ahead and send me any questions you have about a prior episode, and I'll do my best to answer them. You can email me at Jonathan Heifetz at gmail.com. That's Jonathan Heifetz, my first and last name at gmail.com or DM me on Twitter or X. Thanks everyone. I look forward to your questions.