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Jonathan Hafetz

Hi, I'm Jonathan Hafetz, and welcome to Law on Film, a podcast that explores the rich connections between law and film. Law is critical to many films. Film and turn tells us a lot about the law. In each episode, we'll examine a film that's noteworthy from a legal perspective. What legal issues does the film explore? What does it get right about the law and what does it get wrong?

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Jonathan Hafetz

And what does the film teach us about the law, and about the larger social and cultural context in which it operates? Our film, this episode is a separation. A 2011 Iranian drama written and directed by Oscar Farhadi. The film depicts the marital separation between a middle class couple, Nadar and his wife Simin. Simin wants the family to leave Iran to make a better life for their ten year old daughter term.

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Jonathan Hafetz

But Nadar refuses to go because he does not want to leave. His father, who's suffering from Alzheimer's disease, and he refuses to give permission for their daughter to leave. The film also depicts the conflict that results when Nadar allegedly pushes his father's low income caregiver, Razia, down the stairs during an altercation. After Razia leaves his father alone in the apartment tied to a bed.

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Jonathan Hafetz

This causes Razia to miscarry during her pregnancy. A separation centers around the two legal cases, the divorce proceedings between the Da and Simin, and the criminal proceedings against Nadar. It provides a window not only into law in Iran, but into the complex forces of politics, class and religion that shape modern Iranian society. Joining me to discuss this universally acclaimed and award winning film is Golbarg Rekabtalaei.

a professor of history at Seton Hall University.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Golbarg is a historian of modern Iran and the Middle East at large. Her research focuses on the formation of a cosmopolitan modernity in 20th century Iran through cultural exchanges and cinematic relations between Iran and the world. In addition to numerous other scholarly works, Golbarg is the author of Iranian Cosmopolitanism A Cinematic History, published in 2019. Welcome, Golbarg, and thanks for joining the online film.

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Golbarg Rekabtalaei

Thank you, Jonathan, it's good to be here.

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Jonathan Hafetz

So one of your main areas of expertise is Iranian cinema, as well as a history of Iran and the Middle East generally. What first got you interested in Iranian cinema?

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Golbarg Rekabtalaei

Well, when I was a much younger, I used to watch a lot of films with my parents and brother, and I think that kind of got me interested in films in general. But when I left Iran, I think watching Iranian films became a way for me to, you know, feel connected to home while I was in the diaspora.

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Golbarg Rekabtalaei

So I began watching every Iranian film that I basically could get my hands on. And back then, it was not really easy to watch films because there weren't any streaming online streaming services or YouTube. But, you know, I did the best I could. And when I used to watch films, I remember looking for clues about what Iran was like in those films.

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Golbarg Rekabtalaei

And now that I was not there. So I got used to watching films or using films basically as a window into a society and country that I was far from. And when I began my PhD program, I knew I was interested in Iranian cinema, but I was more interested in an era that I did not know much about.

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Golbarg Rekabtalaei

Meaning the pre-revolutionary era, the pre 1979 era. And so I began my journey into reading about the history of this era, and also the history of cinema and cinema culture in pre-revolutionary era, to see what films kind of perspectives they offer about that, period.

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Jonathan Hafetz

It's interesting how you're kind of journey through Iranian cinema was kind of related to your sort of life and coming here and exploring it. And interesting, you say not a lot was available, and I think partly that was or maybe largely that was because of sort of technology, just limitations on technology. But was Iranian cinema then as well known as a cinematic tradition as it is now?

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Jonathan Hafetz

I mean, now, at least within, you know, places where cinema is taken seriously. You know, like the film form in New York, IFC in New York, they'll have festivals of Iranian film, and they're often featured as content for the Academy Awards. So is that a relatively recent development?

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Golbarg Rekabtalaei

I think for maybe most Americans, they became more familiar with Iranian cinema in the last maybe ten, 15 years. But beginning in 1990s, in fact, Iranian cinema became really popular, in international festivals. Films of Kiarostami, for example, winning a lot of, awards. And that's how a lot of people became interested in Iranian cinema. And of course, seeing an image of Iran that they were not necessarily seeing in Western media.

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Golbarg Rekabtalaei

So the cinema has been around, cinema of post-revolutionary Iran has been around for a long time now. However, we forget that the cinema of pre-revolutionary Iran was also quite popular because we don't have access to those films anymore. And of course we forget. I mean, that's part of human history that we forget. So just so your audience is aware, there was a very active film production and film culture in Iran prior to 1970s, both popular films and alternative films and many of the alternative films of 1960s and 70s were being watched on international film festivals.

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Golbarg Rekabtalaei

And they even would win awards. Iran itself had a very famous international film festival called Tehran International Film Festival that featured a lot of international films as well as National Thumbs. And in fact, after a Cannes for a few years, 1 or 2 years after Cannes Film Festival, it was like the most famous festival for a short period of time.

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Golbarg Rekabtalaei

But yes, after the revolution, I think because there was basically a period of war and isolation, a lot of people in the international community could not necessarily see Iranian films and the progression of cinema over the decades until the last 20 years, when films have become more readily available, especially in the last few years because of online streaming services.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Would be an interesting thought experiment to see the trajectory to continue without the 1979 revolution. I suspect that it would be like it was you said, you know, Tehran would be like one of the major film spots, international film spots for like festivals. But it's still like an amazing cinematic visions.

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Golbarg Rekabtalaei

Continue, perhaps, but it's difficult. It's difficult to, you know, predict.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Are there some key features of this cinematic tradition that stand out to you of Iranian film?

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Golbarg Rekabtalaei

Well, you know, Iran has a very rich cultural history in general. And as part of that, very rich literary tradition and culture and this fascination with, I think literature and culture in general has undoubtedly had an impact on cinema's rich tradition before and after the revolution. One aspect of this cinematic tradition that is fascinating to me is what I call its cosmopolitanism, or is basically transnational or cross-cultural interactions.

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Golbarg Rekabtalaei

Since the beginning of the formation of cinema culture in Iran, there were many different ethnic and religious communities who were engaged either in film production, in film circulation, or in general, creating a film culture. And this cosmopolitanism I believe, was kind of incorporated into a sustained national film production, especially after World War two. Not only people of diverse religious and ethnic backgrounds were involved in film production, but the topics and themes that were adopted and kind of tackled in both Iran's popular and alternative cinema.

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Golbarg Rekabtalaei

What is usually considered as also new wave cinema. The topics were also transnational. Sometimes they were remakes of, you know, international films, sometimes they were borrowing from motifs, for example, from international films. So that became a, in my opinion, one of the characteristics of this cinema. Another one was in fact the humanist nature of these films. Again, many of the alternative films prior to 1979 revolution were humans.

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Golbarg Rekabtalaei

So the human condition, which is a universal topic, of course, became central to many of these films. And because even in the pre-revolutionary period, filmmakers were still dealing with censorship and because they feared, of course, arrest or retribution, they used an allegorical language to tell their stories. And that's also something that we see in post-revolutionary cinema. After the 1979 revolution, due to strict government restrictions on film production, especially in terms of stories and topics, we see that filmmakers use an allegorical language, for example, political critique, or they attend to social issues to say something about politics or they use.

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Golbarg Rekabtalaei

For example, in 1990s and early 2000, a lot of filmmakers were making or they were using children to tell a story about socio economic conditions, because if they featured adults, the stories would seem more serious and the films would be banned from being screened inside you on and also in international film circuits. The allegorical language that's used in filmmaking in Iran is also one that I think kind of characterizes the cinema.

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Jonathan Hafetz

How widely understood are the allegories within Iran?

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Golbarg Rekabtalaei

Within Iran, it's more or less completely understood. I'm also fascinated by this, that Iranians really love films. But of course, you have different kinds of audiences. You have the more serious audiences who are interested in, you know, new Iranian cinema, the the social dramas, more politically informed films. And then, of course, you have popular films as well, but popular films are also very socially critical.

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Golbarg Rekabtalaei

I mean, they provide critiques about everyday life that are quite, you know, telling of a society. So Iranians having lived in those conditions, for them, a lot of these critiques are completely legible and they understand them when watching films.

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Jonathan Hafetz

So is it the censors, whoever's in charge of reviewing and approving the films? They must know at some level that the message is widely understood. Right. But is it just some sort of kind of tacit agreement that if you don't, if you don't do it in a way that's obvious, even if it's understood, the film will be allowed to be made and shown.

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Golbarg Rekabtalaei

It's very complicated. It's a very complicated process because the guidelines, there are no clear guidelines for film production. Yes, it is all kind of implicitly and assumed or there are just these tacit agreements between film censors and filmmakers about what can be shown on screen and what cannot be shown. But over the years, of course, filmmakers have completely come to understand the restrictions and the red lines, and they've tried to, you know, kind of go around those red lines, but there are some clear red lines.

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Golbarg Rekabtalaei

For example, just to give you a few examples, the touching, of a man and a woman on screen is not allowed. So a lot of times what you see with films that have legal permits in Iran and the filmmakers actually use like really they kind of go out of their way to depict an embrace or a kiss on screen without actually showing the actual intimacy between the two people on screen.

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Golbarg Rekabtalaei

Another thing is with each president and each government in Iran, I think laws are also a little bit applied differently. For example, during the late 1990s, early 2000, we have basically what one of my colleagues has called reform cinema. This is a cinema that became a little bit more politically explicit or socially at least explicit, because the laws allowed them or the film censors basically were a little bit more lenient.

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Golbarg Rekabtalaei

So that's when you actually begin to see the cinema of Iran really growing and blooming and also becoming quite famous in international circuits. But in general, I should say that a lot of times, like I mentioned, it's a very complex process as well, because sometimes censors allow for certain topics tackled by certain directors to be made, but those same topics are not allowed to be made by, you know, the same films are not allowed to be made by filmmakers who are seen as problematic or seen as, you know, being more perhaps politically conscious, more contentious.

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Jonathan Hafetz

It's a highly contextual process.

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Golbarg Rekabtalaei

Absolutely.

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Jonathan Hafetz

It sounds a little bit like what they're looking for, the censors are looking for is different, but it sounds a little bit like making films during the Production Code here in Hollywood. I mean, maybe a little bit where sort of things you can't show, but you kind of can get around them and, you know, the better directors were able to get a message across without being explicit.

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Golbarg Rekabtalaei

Right, exactly, exactly. But of course, with many, many more restrictions.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah, of course, of course. Well, turning to the separation, our film for this episode, the Law and the legal procedure are an important aspect of the movie. And there's these two main storylines, right? One is the marital separation between the husband, the daughter played by Peyman Melody and his wife Simin, played by Leyla Hitomi. And then the second is the criminal complaint that's filed against the Da for allegedly pushing Raza Yang, played by Sara Bayat, the poor or low income woman he hired to take care of his father down the stairs, causing her to miscarry.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Can you just give a little context for these two proceedings?

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Golbarg Rekabtalaei

So Iran's legal system is basically a blend of Islamic law or Sharia law that is based on while Rashi ism and civil law, the 12 year Shi'ism is basically the official state religion of Iran, and it's the 12 Rashi interpretation of Islamic law that's kind of incorporated into Iran's legal system. And we kind of see that in the film as well.

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Golbarg Rekabtalaei

For example, when dealing with family matters, the film takes place in a family court or a civil court where a judge presides, when dealing with the criminal complaint. The film takes place in a criminal court where the criminal penal code is applied after the revolution. Basically, both of these courts incorporated Islamic law and therefore the rulings both of these courts are supposed to align with Sharia laws as interpreted in Shia Islam, and so on.

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Jonathan Hafetz

The first proceeding, one that bookends the movie, the divorce proceeding between the Da and the mean right. There are this secular, middle class, upper middle class couple. And so sameen we learn right away she wants the family to leave Iran to make a better life for her daughter. She's obtained the visas, but the Da, her husband says he doesn't want to go because he doesn't want to leave.

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Jonathan Hafetz

His father, who's suffering from Alzheimer's disease, and the daughter refuses to give permission for their ten year old daughter to play by Sarina Farhadi, which I understand is the real life daughter of the director Asghar Farhadi. He won't let her leave Iran. So, I mean, files for divorce, but since there are no grounds for the court to grant a divorce like the daughter, doesn't pizza mean or refuse to pay her an allowance?

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Jonathan Hafetz

The court says there's nothing it can do. And so the couple's just kind of left to separate. Simin goes to live with their parents, at least temporarily. So what can we learn from this about family and divorce law? Our family law in Iran.

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Golbarg Rekabtalaei

So in the first scene and also last scene, as you mentioned, we see the couple in a civil or family court where they seem to be asking for a consensual divorce, meaning both parties consented to divorce. And according to Iranian law, when both the husband and wife are satisfied with, the separation and divorce, and they agree on issues that relate to marriage, such as the woman's dowry, alimony or custody of their children.

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Golbarg Rekabtalaei

The petition for a consensual divorce is registered either by the spouses or by their lawyers in the judicial service officers, or online services that they have. However, that doesn't seem to be the case with this couple with Nader and Simin because they seem to resolve some issues. You know, some of their issues have been resolved, especially such as Siemens, for example, dowry.

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Golbarg Rekabtalaei

They don't seem to have a problem about that because this is a couple that's privileged of they come from a privileged class, but they need to resolve the issue of the custody of their child, which is, you know what? They cannot necessarily come to agreement on. And this is the part that's causing the the rift or the problem in the first scene.

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Golbarg Rekabtalaei

And the judge, of course, tells them that you need to go back and talk more and then, you know, come back to because this is basically not grounds for a divorce. So this is a case of consensual divorce according to Iranian law.

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Jonathan Hafetz

You mentioned the dowry. Can you just, just talk a little bit how that plays into the marital situation from a U.S. or Western perspective? The custody issues will be real and they will be difficult in a different situation. But the dowries, it seems particular to Iran or different from a U.S. Western perspective.

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Golbarg Rekabtalaei

I mean, dowry is interesting. It's kind of a pre Islamic practice that was also adopted in Islam. And the idea behind it is basically the husband providing funding or, you know, some kind of money. In the past it used to be, during the time of the rise of Islam or even before Islam. It was maybe a lot of times in number of camels or other goods.

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Golbarg Rekabtalaei

But, of course, in the contemporary period, a lot of times it's basically money or, gold coins. And so on. And the idea is basically, in the case of a divorce, the woman would be able to use that money in case, you know, they needed. Of course, the woman can forgive, the dowry and say, I don't want anything to do with it because that's sometimes causes problems in a divorce or, you know, sometimes they actually ask for that dowry because it is a source of income for a lot of women, especially those who are not necessarily employed or don't have a source of income.

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Jonathan Hafetz

I see. So that was a couple that was less affluent. There would have to be some kind of financial compensation for the wife, on the assumption that the man was the one who had the money, was the breadwinner, and she would need some kind of money for a settlement, they were going to separate.

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Golbarg Rekabtalaei

It really doesn't matter if they're affluent or not. It is something that's usually drawn up in marriage contracts. So even with affluent couples, still the woman is entitled to have a dowry and the husband is supposed to pay that if they divorce. But yes, it becomes, of course more important for women from lower socioeconomic classes because they can use that as a source of income.

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Golbarg Rekabtalaei

But the problem with that is a lot of times with couples from lower socioeconomic classes, the men are not able to to pay that dowry or the equivalent money for the gold coins that was in the contract. And therefore sometimes we see that these men are actually jailed because they cannot pay the dowry. This is kind of one of the issues that Iranian society is facing more and more recently, because of the dwindling, you know, economic conditions of the country.

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Jonathan Hafetz

The scene I found very kind of striking the way it was shot. Right. It opens up. It's all in a single take. It opens with, camera facing directly on Nadia and two men, and the judge is talking to them. We don't see the judge or the magistrate. And two men in our are next to each other and facing the viewer.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Essentially, I just not a very striking. And if you had any thoughts about the way the film opens up or resonates with Iranian cinematic tradition.

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Golbarg Rekabtalaei

That's a really interesting observation and also a really interesting choice, in my opinion, on the part of the filmmaker. So looking into the camera at the beginning of the film, that's what we call breaking the fourth wall or this imaginary wall that's between the performers or the actors and audience. And through this technique, basically the actors at acknowledge the camera and address the audience directly.

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Golbarg Rekabtalaei

And the the intention behind this technique, you know, the intention of the filmmaker is to connect with the audience. So in this opening scene, in a way, Norther and Simien are not only judged by, you know, the judge who's in the courtroom, but they're also judged by the audience, by us, or in a sense, they're subject to to the court of public opinion, in a way.

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Golbarg Rekabtalaei

And so the technique takes the audience kind of deep into the psyche of the characters. Their words and actions are scrutinized by the audience throughout the film because we are looking for clues to the problems that they are experiencing in their marriage, or the kind of problems that they're experiencing in Iran of 2011. And if you notice, in fact, until the end of the film, you feel like you don't have a moment to grieve.

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Golbarg Rekabtalaei

You constantly, need to be paying attention to be connected to scrutinize everything that's happening. I put the puzzle together in a way until the end of the film. When we are in the same, you know, court again. But this time is the only time that feels like, you know, you can have a moment to breathe.

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Golbarg Rekabtalaei

It's like a recess, a moment when we, contemplate about what just happened. And I think the way he, the Director Safadi, has done this has structured and framed the film with these two scenes. It kind of resembles the messiness of life that, you know, we experience in our own daily lives. And of course, that the couple also is experiencing in the film.

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Jonathan Hafetz

It's such an interesting observation. And what it brings to mind to me now does is the end of the film. Do you mention that? Because come to think of it, that's also a long take, single long take. But now it's just a take of Nadar. It's after they've appeared before the magistrate again. And for all the intervening events and the other legal proceeding, which we'll talk about in a minute, have occurred.

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Jonathan Hafetz

And then it's Nadar sitting outside in the hallway waiting for the ruling. And seems like you're kind of looking and judging and there's no dialog at this time, and you're just sitting there watching him.

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Golbarg Rekabtalaei

Yeah, exactly. And it's the daughter who's looking into the camera. But both Nada and Simeon are actually looking away, and they're kind of distant. And, you know, a majority of the shots are like medium shots, but this one is not. So it really changes the feel of the film at the end. So yeah. Yeah, I really like how he begins and ends the film.

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Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah. It's such a, I think, brilliant work. You know, most of the action is the middle of the film is this concerns this other legal proceeding. Right. Where after the Da allegedly pushes Razia, the lower income caregiver for his father, down the stairs, allegedly causing her to miscarry, a criminal complaint is filed against him, supported by Razia and her husband.

00;23;50;01 - 00;24;12;08

Jonathan Hafetz

Hajar and Nadar then files a complaint against Razia for tying his father to the bed and leaving him alone in the apartment, and the comes back home and find his father lying on the floor. Well, what's the background for this proceeding? Anything else you can say about this one is criminal? One yeah, we talked about the family divorce proceeding, but this is a kind of criminal proceeding.

00;24;12;19 - 00;24;36;12

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

Well, according to, again, Islamic law, as practiced in Iran, abortion is illegal unless it is to save the life of the mother. In other words, in Islamic law, the life of the mother is more important than the light of the fetus. And if the continuation of pregnancy, for example, leads to complications for either the fetus or the mother, then abortion is legal.

00;24;36;15 - 00;25;01;04

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

And this is, just one thing that we should note is that this is not necessarily how Islamic law is, practiced or applied in other Islamic societies, for example, in the Arab world, different from one country to another, but based on the different interpretations that Islamic scholars have of a few verses in the Koran, abortion is seen basically differently by different schools of thought in Islam.

00;25;01;04 - 00;25;30;24

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

But what is commonly held by Islamic schools in both Sunnis, I mean, she is is that the fetus is infused with life after 20 weeks of pregnancy. So the rulings prior to 20 weeks and after 20 weeks are kind of different. After 20 weeks, you basically can think of the fetus as as a human being, which is a little bit contentious in itself because people have different interpretations of that and different views on that in Iran.

00;25;30;24 - 00;26;02;00

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

From an Islamic law perspective, the law pertaining to intentional or unintentional miscarriage or abortion is kind of fuzzy. People have like I said, people have different opinions about it. It is not clear if the fetus has rights as a full human being even after 20 weeks. So while yes, we say that life has been infused, into the fetus, it's still unclear whether that fetus should be counted as a human being or not.

00;26;02;07 - 00;26;35;23

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

Generally, however, when the person has caused the miscarriage, does it unintentionally, or is unaware of the pregnancy of the woman, the person who has caused the miscarriage they need to pay blood money or they would face a prison sentence. But if it's unintentional, the prison sentence is shorter. But if the miscarriage is intentional or the person causing it is aware of the pregnancy, some argue that they must face a prison sentence of 2 to 5 years and they must pay blood money.

00;26;35;25 - 00;26;51;07

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

And then there are those who argue that the fetus is a human being, and therefore they must face retribution as well as pay blood money. So again, there are different interpretations of, you know, kind of practice on a case by case basis.

00;26;51;07 - 00;27;05;25

Jonathan Hafetz

So this is why so critical in the movie, whether or not Nadar knew that Rozina the caregiver was pregnant, right? If you didn't know then it would be unintentional. That seems like one critical that and that's why they spend a lot of time on it.

00;27;06;02 - 00;27;24;03

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

So just one thing. I mean, because some of what people were writing at the time about the film, what about the legal, procedures in the film? There were some people who were taking issue with that because they were saying that it doesn't matter if it's intentional or unintentional, but like I said, then there are those who actually say it does matter.

00;27;24;03 - 00;27;42;22

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

It changes basically the time if it was intentional or if they were aware, it changes it into a First-Degree murder, which kind of changes the sentence. So there were all these debates in Iran at the time about, you know, if this was actually, kind of like a true or correct reading of the law.

00;27;42;24 - 00;28;07;19

Jonathan Hafetz

Am I understanding, right, that depending on the reading of the law and depending on whether the Da knew or did not know that Reza was pregnant, it would change the nature of the offense such that it would be a offense against the state for which retribution was owed, and he could not get out of it or settle it by paying blood money, because in the film, basically he could face up to one, two, three years, which is roughly right for what the penalty could be.

00;28;07;24 - 00;28;32;17

Jonathan Hafetz

Or he could resolve the case. I guess if the other side agreed, if Ojodu and Razia agreed by paying blood money or not. Right. Which is the sort of financial position it was almost like between private parties, and it wasn't something like that. The state, if the parties agreed to a settlement, the state would allow it to happen as opposed to, you know, murder was an act against the state, and the state is going to punish no matter what the parties want to do.

00;28;32;19 - 00;28;54;04

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

Right. And it was also about withdrawing the complaint. Right. It was I mean, that's that's what they were talking about throughout the film, that if both parties agreed to the blood money, then the complaint can be withdrawn. And this then would not cause any prison sentence or anything else. Again, the intentionality and on intentionality of it, some people argue, does not matter.

00;28;54;12 - 00;29;07;20

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

It's just blood money. But then there are those who argue that, in fact, in the case of intentional abortion, it can be seen as a first degree murder that might have more serious consequences.

00;29;07;22 - 00;29;16;23

Jonathan Hafetz

And the first degree murder in that case, would it be viewed then as not a private dispute, but as a crime against God, which the state would have to pardon?

00;29;16;26 - 00;29;24;13

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

No, no, it would still be seen as a private matter, private rights, murder, those sort of crimes are actually seen as private rights.

00;29;24;13 - 00;29;44;22

Jonathan Hafetz

I see. So the debate was over the severity of the private offense, what the prison could be, and perhaps how much the blood money that the compensation would be. Yes. But there is this other distinction which I found interesting, very intriguing between the private disputes and crimes against God, which cannot be pardoned by individuals, right, but must by the state.

00;29;44;22 - 00;29;49;27

Jonathan Hafetz

So, for example, I think like adultery, which is not a private dispute, but would have to be pardoned by the state.

00;29;50;11 - 00;30;13;06

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

Yes. I mean, the crimes in the film are considered as crimes against individuals. Murder criminal abortion. These are considered, crimes against individuals. And, therefore, you recall, like private rights and the person who commits them, the crime basically is accountable to people. And in these cases, of course, blood money can be applied, which is a way to resolve the issue.

00;30;13;11 - 00;30;39;28

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

But in Iran's penal code, it criminalizes acts of usually blasphemy, in fact, and insulting the prophet. Those are the kind of crimes that are criminalized. And so those are kind of framed as offenses that violate public rights. They're also considered as crimes against God. Like I said, insulting the prophet is like one of the biggest ones, and it can carry the death penalty as punishment.

00;30;40;01 - 00;31;00;14

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

But the language of the law is so ambiguous, and the scope of it is so broad that it's really unclear how it can be applied by Iranian authorities and sometimes Iranian authorities. You know, basically it's at the discretion of the Iranian authorities on how to apply these laws, which sometimes leads to misuse of the law.

00;31;00;16 - 00;31;18;05

Jonathan Hafetz

The distinction is very helpful between the private right and the public right. Yeah. Blasphemy. That would be in the public right. And that's an act against God or the state. And if it's classified that way, that's something that then can't be resolved through the cash payment. The blood money payment is really interesting and operates intersects with a lot of themes in the movie.

00;31;18;05 - 00;31;40;06

Jonathan Hafetz

And here, right, you have a Nadar refuses, does not want to pay the blood money. He thinks he's right. It's prideful and lazy. And her husband, Hodja, who's usually lost his job and been imprisoned by creditors, would like to have the money paid. How common is the payment of blood money? And I don't know there any sort of issues around it, or I'm sort of interested in how it's viewed in society.

00;31;40;08 - 00;32;12;18

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

Well, just to provide a definition, basically, blood money is the financial penalty that's paid to the victim. In Islamic jurisprudence, as you mentioned, it's called Dia. And, this is also another pre-Islamic practice that was adopted after the rise of Islam. And it's still to this day, of course, used in Islamic countries such as Iran. And it is usually determined, the blood money is determined using the price of camels, again in the traditional sense.

00;32;12;18 - 00;32;50;20

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

And every few years basically this rate is determined for a human being. But in reality, in practice, it's the family or heirs of the victim who negotiates the blood money directly with the offender. So it's all about a matter of negotiation between the two parties. And then, you know, a price is determined. It's basically a way to, to allow the involved parties to settle their case without resorting to imprisonment or other forms of punishment that are perhaps a little bit more severe, for example, execution itself as a form of retribution.

00;32;50;20 - 00;33;19;26

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

Right. But there are some problems with it, because on the one hand, of course, it's kind of a merciful way to deal with the case. But on the other hand, it allows the more privileged classes, for example, in this case not his family, to buy their way out of prison or to be able to, you know, provide this money so that they don't have to deal with the with the charge or, you know, with the sentence or ruling anymore.

00;33;19;28 - 00;33;38;29

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

But people, of course, from lower socioeconomic classes like Georgette and Razia, of course, they cannot afford the blood money. And usually, people or family is from lower socioeconomic classes are subject to imprisonment unless they are pardoned by the person bringing the charge or the plaintiffs basically.

00;33;39;02 - 00;33;59;09

Jonathan Hafetz

I think you made that point so well, I mean, in the film here, you know, Dar had an easy way out. I mean, he could have paid them the money. He had the money. His wife wanted him to pay the money. He could have resolved it, but he doesn't. He ends up then winning the case because he requires or demands that Razia swear on the Koran.

00;33;59;09 - 00;34;18;17

Jonathan Hafetz

That she lost the baby as a result of being pushed or rendered really by the dirham, but when in fact she realized she might have lost it before she so devout and honest that she won't swear she loses. They lose the case. Presumably they drop the case, but he could afford it. And then. But what you're saying is like it sort of.

00;34;18;17 - 00;34;35;12

Jonathan Hafetz

It had been flipped and Pajot had pushed Simin, right? Nadir's wife, and she had lost her baby. They would not have been able to settle it by blood money because they were destitute. Essentially, they had no funds, so they would have actually, unless they got pardoned, they would have had no choice but to go to jail.

00;34;35;15 - 00;35;12;24

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

Exactly, exactly. On this. They have been pardoned by the family. And I mean, that also happens a lot. I mean, there are usually intermediaries or, you know, mediators that try to solicit the pardon from either party in cases such as this, especially when retribution is the sentence or execution. Especially people try to like ask the family of the victim to if, for example, if someone has killed someone, there may be sometimes a mediator or intermediary between the two families because there could be a case of retribution.

00;35;12;24 - 00;35;44;12

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

I mean, the person who has committed the crime can be basically executed. So if the family of the victim does not want to pardon the offender or the person who has committed the crime, these people actually they try to solicit the pardon, sometimes through blood money, sometimes just maybe using the pressure of the community. It's also like like I said, it's a more merciful way of dealing with the case instead of just resorting to law, imprisonment, harsh punishments and so on.

00;35;44;15 - 00;36;03;11

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah. To ask you a little bit, just about the kind of procedures, especially in the criminal case, you have the parties, the two couples, Nadar and two men, and Razia and Hajar in a room, witnesses may or may not be there as well. And you have this investigating judge, and they're trying to kind of sort through what happened.

00;36;03;11 - 00;36;23;00

Jonathan Hafetz

And it's just a very informal type of process. You know, they do here before this investigator investigating judge, there are no lawyers. One side often is kind of arguing with the other side about what happened. And accusations are flying and the investigators trying to get the bottom of it and keep order. And again, no lawyers can talk a little bit about this from the criminal procedure side.

00;36;23;02 - 00;36;39;25

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

I mean, that's interesting because I actually showed the film to my students a couple of days ago, and I didn't realize that this is a part that they don't necessarily understand. So it's a great question. So yeah, when the film is taking place in a, in a criminal court, what we see is, you know, actually a lot of negotiation happening between different people.

00;36;39;25 - 00;37;16;25

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

And then there is a person who's like an authority official there. Basically the person that we see is an investigator, not a judge. And basically what we are seeing is an investigator in a, preliminary stage of the investigation, lawyers are not present at this preliminary stage of the investigation. Preliminary investigation basically, in general, is the collection of investigative actions taken for the purpose of discovery of the crime or also preserving the evidence of the commission of crime.

00;37;16;27 - 00;37;49;23

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

So lawyers are not present under Iranian law at this stage. In general, Iranian jurisprudence doesn't necessarily provide a very detailed process for criminal procedures and not for investigative stage. However, under Iranian law, access to lawyers is guaranteed, but only at the trial stage. So what we see for most of the film is, in fact, the investigative stage and where the investigator is trying to, you know, investigate the crime, discover the crime and see what kind of evidence exists.

00;37;49;25 - 00;38;01;25

Jonathan Hafetz

And this includes, even in one scene, the investigator going out to the apartment where the fall or the push, whatever were calling happened. I try to create the event with all the parties there and with the witnesses there.

00;38;01;27 - 00;38;22;08

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

Exactly. Yes. Again, this is part of the investigation. And in fact, we see an investigator who's doing his job well, by kind of recreating the crime scene. I can't say that that always takes place. But it certainly does in some cases. And again, it's not very clear. The process is not clear, especially during this stage of investigation.

00;38;22;08 - 00;38;42;22

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

But I think in general, this investigator is really trying to kind of find the truth or, you know, to recreate the crime scene in order to get to the truth as much as he can, at least for the audience. Right? I mean, this is all it means for us to see what actually happened and how different people view or see the crime.

00;38;42;24 - 00;38;48;08

Jonathan Hafetz

So this investigative stage, it seems like it plays an important role in a criminal case.

00;38;48;11 - 00;39;23;15

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

Yes, it does, because majority of the time it's during this investigative stage that people can actually show their viewpoint and provide all the evidence they can, you know, in regard to that case. So that's why you also see a lot of negotiation or debate happening between different parties. And as well as, you know, debates between the parties and the investigator, because what is written down at that stage has a huge impact on sentencing and ruling later on at the trial stage.

00;39;23;15 - 00;39;29;01

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

So, yes, that investigative stage is quite important and quite informal.

00;39;29;03 - 00;39;51;02

Jonathan Hafetz

There's one other final kind of subplot that where there's a kind of a legal theme, which I found very interesting. So hotshot, very hot tempered guy, right? The husband of Razia, the caregiver. We learned he'd been in prison before because he was unable to pay his debts after he lost his job as a cobbler. And this overall helps explain this kind of confrontational and aggressive behavior.

00;39;51;04 - 00;40;01;11

Jonathan Hafetz

And it sounds like from what you were saying before, that people in Iran can be jailed for failing to pay their debts as opposed to sort of declaring personal bankruptcy or something like that.

00;40;01;14 - 00;40;23;03

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

Absolutely. I mean, this seems to be happening a lot more lately. A lot of people who cannot pay their debt or jailed in a way they're at the mercy of their creditors. And we see that also in the film we see Razia, for example, talking to her jet's creditors to see if, you know, they can withdraw their complaint so that Pooja can actually leave the jail.

00;40;23;05 - 00;40;52;12

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

So if the creditors basically show mercy and give them time, or withdraw their complaint that the debtor is not jailed. But since the, economic conditions of Iran have kind of plummeted, not only since the revolution, but especially in the last ten years and especially since 2018, when JCPoA was canceled, kind of because of the crippling sanctions on Iran, you see more and more of, in fact, debtors being jailed.

00;40;52;19 - 00;41;26;09

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

It's as if people are bearing the brunt of Iran's disastrous economy or economic conditions. So, of course, within these, economic conditions, creditors wonder money debtors can pay their debt. So more and more people are being jailed as a result of it. And a lot of times, because the debtors are the only breadwinners in the family, the impact of their being jailed is really disastrous for their families, which in this case, we also see how, Rosie is actually being impacted by this as a pregnant woman.

00;41;26;09 - 00;41;33;21

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

She needs to be doing like really difficult work, and that this is becoming a lot more common in the past few years.

00;41;33;23 - 00;42;08;11

Jonathan Hafetz

In the film, she takes this job, which is difficult and also problematic because she has no choice because of the economic situation we talk about the separation is the marital separation, but there are a lot of separations in this movie between the children and the daughter of Simin and Nader. So Maria Rossi and her job, much younger daughter between the middle class Nadar and the lower class which got her job protests during the legal proceeding often that he he just can't talk like that guy frankly in a da like that, you know, he's just unable to represent himself in the same way.

00;42;08;14 - 00;42;22;01

Jonathan Hafetz

And then between the devoutly religious wazir in the secular world of the dance, I mean, the film seems a lot about the law, the legal procedure, but it's really a lot about class, religion and political divisions in Iran. Would you agree?

00;42;22;04 - 00;42;53;12

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

Yeah. I mean, Well-put, I totally agree with you. I mean, a lot of people think of this as maybe a purely courtroom drama. I see it, in fact, as a social drama because it uses the court or these legal procedures to kind of delve into the binaries that you mentioned, the widening gaps in society. There's a widening class difference, hence class conflict resulting from a dwindling economy, especially because of the sanctions on Iran in the past few years.

00;42;53;15 - 00;43;38;00

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

It also tackles the issue of widening differences between the more religiously and conservative members of society, and the more secular members of society in an Islamic republic, especially as a result of the harsh policies of the government which have become more conservative, especially in the past few years. But it also points to a society that has changed, and I think this is something that, as my party tries to show in his films in general, within this film, we see that he shows that the Iranian society is in a situation where social classes who want to live a moral life, they can no longer do that.

00;43;38;07 - 00;44;02;17

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

And despite their heart's desire, basically they are forced to lie. I mean, we see everyone in the film in a way, lying and lying in a way is the most important symbol of a society is immorality. So basically, he's also showing that the Iranian society has a condition where people cannot live morally anymore. So in that sense, he is providing this critique.

00;44;02;20 - 00;44;08;14

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

Social critique of Iran as a result of economic conditions, political conditions and so on.

00;44;08;17 - 00;44;29;28

Jonathan Hafetz

Really captures so much of the film. And you can see even the daughter, the ten year old daughter Tanmay, who seems it's almost sort of a central character, even where she is, even I don't know if corrupt is the right word, but even she is forced to lie when she realizes she presses her father, who claims he didn't know that Razia was pregnant, and then finally admits, based on when, the evidence kind of becomes clear, that he did know.

00;44;30;03 - 00;44;38;06

Jonathan Hafetz

And then she then I think essentially lies for him, right? She's sort of in a sense, kind of innocent and a little bit kind of corrupt or affected by what's going on around her.

00;44;38;09 - 00;45;04;21

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

I mean, it's interesting. First of all, we see generations, right? We see Soumya was determined that we see the adults and we see now they're actually really trying to show her daughter to live a moral life, to tell the truth, always. And however, because of his own actions, immoral actions, because of his own lies, it's as if the daughter is also kind of transforming into the father.

00;45;04;21 - 00;45;17;02

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

Her innocence. She's losing basically her innocence because now she has to lie. So that transformation, I think, is also like really interesting and says a lot about this society. That's changing.

00;45;17;05 - 00;45;43;15

Jonathan Hafetz

Yeah. And then there's also the gender dynamic that you see certainly with Razia, the caregiver, but also between Simin and the Dar and Dar's father, she wants to move, she wants to leave Iran. She has visas because she wants more opportunities for her ten year old daughter, who seems very smart, right, and wants to kind of go somewhere where she would have more opportunities and he sort of refuses because he will not leave his father because he has to take care of him.

00;45;43;15 - 00;45;54;09

Jonathan Hafetz

So I thought that was kind of interesting, both in terms of the gender dynamics and also the other generational dynamics going to the next level out there, the father of the daughter or the father of of Nadar.

00;45;54;12 - 00;46;25;13

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

Absolutely. I mean, it's like an entangled web and it's really difficult to like, see and separate one without looking at the others. It's like that. There's always like these dialogs or connection between, two individuals or all individuals together in a sense. But yes, but they're all kind of subject to these larger sociopolitical conditions in Iran. And of course, which leads to Simien wanting to leave Iran.

00;46;25;15 - 00;46;46;14

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

And let's not forget that the film was filmed in 2010. And then, it was like screened in 2011. And this is right after the 2009 green movement in Iran, where there was a lot of political dissent, there was a lot of political oppression. And in the opening scene of the film, in fact, Semyon says, I can not live.

00;46;46;22 - 00;46;55;27

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

I don't want my daughter to live in these conditions. But she points to this larger political climate of Iran in the post 2009 movement.

00;46;55;29 - 00;47;14;25

Jonathan Hafetz

Well, I'm surprised that this was shown in Iran. So I want to ask is, you know, separation was critically acclaimed in the West. It won the best Oscar for foreign language film, numerous, numerous other awards. I mean, just it was I mean, most acclaimed film of the year. And how was it received in Iran, especially given its biting social criticism?

00;47;14;27 - 00;47;37;18

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

Well, in Iran, the film was actually received really well among the people. Some critics loved the film. Many of them wrote very positive reviews of the film. The film even won awards at Tehran's Fajr Film Festival. There were a few film critics who wrote somewhat negative reviews of the film, but more about the role of women in the film.

00;47;37;25 - 00;48;03;18

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

They're saying this is like an anti-feminist film, which is not something that I personally agree with. And those critics who were closer to the government, they actually wrote that this separation, basically depicted an Iran that Westerners wanted to see. Basically disintegrating society. So there were different views from different sectors of society in general. People, Iranian people loved the film.

00;48;03;21 - 00;48;27;19

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

Iranian government officials shows and however, cancel the ceremony that was planned to honor Farhadi for his accomplish after he returned to Iran. So in a way, they tried to kind of ignore his success and accomplishments, but they didn't ban the film. The film was never banned. It was shown in Iranian cinemas, and to this day, it's one of the of Iranians favorite films.

00;48;27;26 - 00;48;46;15

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

Although majority of the people I talk to, they say that they like other films of Farhadi a little bit more, but I'm not sure if they're as eligible or understandable for an international audience. Like, for example, About Elly. That's one of my most favorite films of Iranians that I've talked to.

00;48;46;17 - 00;48;54;13

Jonathan Hafetz

Are there any other Iranian films you'd recommend for their insights into law, politics, and society in Iran?

00;48;54;16 - 00;49;28;11

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

Almost all the films that were made, especially since 1990s, late 1990s, they kind of provide insight into law, politics, society of Iran, not necessarily law, but definitely politics and society. And they kind of provide a glimpse into social anxieties, political debates of the time in terms of films that deal with legal procedures or the law in general. There are some in post-revolutionary Iran that kind of broke taboos and in fact became quite popular.

00;49;28;14 - 00;49;53;19

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

One of them was a film called I am a mother by 30, Don Giovanni, which kind of attends to a case of murder in self-defense in relation to the case of rape. So like that was, a taboo topic that was not necessarily talked about, but the film kind of attends to that. And it was very important for, you know, Iranian society and cinema to kind of attend to such topics.

00;49;54;01 - 00;50;16;22

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

Another film was hush, Girls Don't Scream, and that one was by this director who ran that action there. She is an Iranian filmmaker who has made films about women a lot, and this one is basically an Iranian drama about a woman on death row for killing a man who abused her as a child and also threatened to abuse another girl.

00;50;16;25 - 00;50;41;22

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

Some of their films and more recent film called Gender or Alive from 2019, that deals with a very complicated court case. And one other one that I can think of is The Sound and the Fury. Of course, taken after William Faulkner, but, this one was made by humans at the end, and this one deals with a man of fame and basically the murder of his wife.

00;50;41;28 - 00;50;49;15

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

But it has nothing to do with Faulkner's a book. It's just in the manner of, telling this story that he's kind of inspired by that.

00;50;49;18 - 00;51;09;19

Jonathan Hafetz

It's such an amazing cinematic tradition. I mean, really, it's so rich and, well, it's been so great talking with you and having you come on and share your insights on a separation and what it can tell us about, politics and society in Iran. So one of what I hope you'll come back and talk about some of these other films on time.

00;51;09;21 - 00;51;15;02

Golbarg Rekabtalaei

I would love to. I mean, thank you so much for having me on the podcast. It has been a pleasure.